Is LLLT for Tinnitus by Dr. Wilden a Scam?

[Bobby B]

LLLT is the only treatment that has a study showing it can Regenerate Cochlear Hair cells right after the acoustic trauma, during in the acute phase.

No other treatment can do that - and with no side effects to boot.

I bought my own device in order to get some improvements yes, but most importantly it will be prevention if I am again subject to another acoustic trauma - explosion, air bags, gunshot, siren etc..
I can do LLLT right away on the same day and have a real shot at regenerating those precious hair cells.

I also keep an ample stock of prednisone in the fridge at home - again so that I won't have to be running crazy around to find an ENT available and miss precious time especially if its on a week-end and they are closed etc..because steroids are supposed to be really effective only during 48 hours or so.

Getting improvements is great but for me not getting worsening is even more important - now that I have this information there is really no excuse to have regrets...not like the first time when I had no idea of the severity of these ear issues and how they can impact ones's life...and that there are a few things that can help provided you act fast.

If you already have lost a good chunk of hair cells its very important to make a plan to save the remaining good ones - I don't think money should be an issue here unless you live in a third world country

 

[Foncky]

Is it difficult to do it all alone Bobby ? How can you be sure you're doing it the right way ?

I totally agree with you. We can't do much to get better, but we can try to not make it worse.

 

[Bobby B]

its not difficult to do it alone at all - but the main difference is that the home devices they sell are a lot less powerful than the ones at the clinics because they are used under doc supervision and maybe docs get special licences to buy them perhaps depending on country

the only exception is getting the lucky laser or a few other but far more expensive units but it needs to have the optics for LLLT human/animal usage which isn't like a regular laser focused beam

 

[Roger Larsson]

LLLT doesn't work, end of discussion! Maybe I´m a bit harsh but I looked into it a while back and there´s nothing to suggest that it has any real effect, placebo effect is a given.

 

[Bobby B]

There are studies showing it works to reduce H
There are many studies showing it helps with nerve regeneration
Also it is the only treatment that can regenerarte cochlear hair cells shortly after acoustic trauma - good to have a device at home and use it on a regular basis as on going prevention.

And if you are lucky and acted fast - then it may reduce acute tinnitus or at least make it less loud and easier to habituate.

Prevention alone is worth the price and time spent - 15 minutes a day, no side effects.

No it won't cure chronic tinnitus - we know that and no one claims other wise so why are you saying it does not work ? Does not work for what exactly..

 

[Reinier]

placebo effect is a given.

Placebo indicates that people "believing" they improve, should fall back again.
I just don't know yet.

 

[Reinier]

There are studies showing it works to reduce H

I really would like to understand why it can improve hyperacusis.

 

[Bobby B]

probably helps with nerve damage and chronic inflammation
The animal studies on nerve regeneration provide more scientific info on how it works

 

[Bobby B]

I have a bad ear - the left one which was on the muzzle side of the rifle, and the good one which is my right ear. I call it my "control" ear in this experiment.

I am doing the same high power 600mw pulsed 3cm distance on both ears. On the bad one I can feel a slight pain whenever the light reaches the cochlea It feels that there is a "wound" in the nerves somewhere inside the ear.Its like touching a nerve that has been exposed and is painful.

The right ear feels nothing with the same beam on it.

At first the pain even stayed a few hours after stopping. Not much pain just on and off slight pain and tingling sometimes.

But the pain is getting less and less every week, and H is gone 90% now so its not placebo.

I can make a phone call and have no reactive T. 1-2 months ago it was hard to use phones and sound were painful.

So far I am very pleased with how it went, and noticed no side effects, and no need to visit clinics and no running costs either.

Do we have better options ?

 

[Bobby B]

@Reinier
Here is another possible mechanism involved

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...speeds-up-healing-by-turbocharging-our-cells/

 

[Reinier]

@Bobby B
Thanks. Interesting article.
It means that after such a long time (one year in my case) the nerves could still be inflamed? After all that is what chronic means (-;. That is a long time for a wound not being healed yet.

Always in the afternoon my hyperacusis is more bothersome. If it is the hyperacusis or my overall energy level I do not know. I think it is in my ears and not my overall energy level.
This could imply nerves getting more inflamed again?
Perhaps I should experiment with wearing earplugs for one day to see if I notice a difference in the afternoon?

I believe my hearing threshold will not improve any more with LLLT, because it is too long ago.
Also the explosion that gave me NIHL, instantly destroyed a lot in my inner ears. It was so loud! Probably comparable with your NIHL (guns).
That is not retrievable any more. But inflamed nerves doesn't sound so far fetched to me.
Food for thought.

 

[bill 112]

@Bobby B
Thanks. Interesting article.
It means that after such a long time (one year in my case) the nerves could still be inflamed? After all that is what chronic means (-;. That is a long time for a wound not being healed yet.

Always in the afternoon my hyperacusis is more bothersome. If it is the hyperacusis or my overall energy level I do not know. I think it is in my ears and not my overall energy level.
This could imply nerves getting more inflamed again?
Perhaps I should experiment with wearing earplugs for one day to see if I notice a difference in the afternoon?

I believe my hearing threshold will not improve any more with LLLT, because it is too long ago.
Also the explosion that gave me NIHL, instantly destroyed a lot in my inner ears. It was so loud! Probably comparable with your NIHL (guns).
That is not retrievable any more. But inflamed nerves doesn't sound so far fetched to me.
Food for thought.

How bad is your hearing loss Reiner?On an audiogram that is if it's not too personal.

 

[bill 112]

@Reinier
Here is another possible mechanism involved

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...speeds-up-healing-by-turbocharging-our-cells/

How long was it after your acoustic trauma that you started LLLT Bobby?And how bad was your hearing loss on an audiogram?

 

[Reinier]

How bad is your hearing loss Reiner?On an audiogram that is if it's not too personal.

It is approximately 65 dB in my most effected ear. Typical NIHL (4 kHz) going up slightly at 5 kHz and than sloping down again after that. I did not wear ear protection. There was no reason to do that. The explosion from the exhaust was most likely as loud as that from a gun. If not louder.

 

[bill 112]

It is approximately 65 dB in my most effected ear. Typical NIHL (4 kHz) going up slightly at 5 kHz and than sloping down again after that. I did not wear ear protection. There was no reason to do that. The explosion from the exhaust was most likely as loud as that from a gun. If not louder.

Just luck Reiner I suppose,I know that kinda luck only too well

I got T in 2011,worsened in 2012,worsened and H in 2014 and then worsened along with crippling H in 2016.

Funny thing is still no hearing loss,I can hear upto 18,000hz and I have like a 5db dip at 4000hz so basically nothing.

My point is maybe there's is something to this inflammation theory?I was emailing Bryan Pollard the President of Hyperacusis Research and he actually recommended I try LLLT so go figure.He did state though that he couldn't back up its efficiency but that he had been made aware of many positive results.

 

[Reinier]

My point is maybe there's is something to this inflammation theory?

Yes. After reading the article in new scientist I am inclined to give it more thought.
I still have doubts about nerves being inflamed all the time without dying all together.
But I am no scientist. Perhaps it is possible for nerves to be inflamed for a long, long time?

Again, I do not believe it will improve my hearing loss. If it would improve my hearing loss, I would regard that as a miracle.
I do not believe in miracles.
But getting improved hyperacusis and less distorted hearing would obviously be worth it.

 

[Mithrandir]

@Reinier try a stage in a clinic, you'll travel & you can try high LLLT in Norway

 

[Reinier]

ry a stage in a clinic, you'll travel & you can try high LLLT in Norway

I looked at a clinic in Sweden.
Flying to Ibiza would be cheaper than driving by car to Sweden.(carbon footprint?? Ibiza is two or three times the distance). But I don't like flying. Only if there is no other option. So I discarded Ibiza.
With travel time I allowed one week in total.
With therapy, food, hotel and petrol I could start concidering buying my own set.
This I can use for as long as I want.
Norway or Sweden I expect to be roughly the same cost wise.

 

[MarioT]

LLLT is a scam. The initial post, including the full Q&A with Wilden speaks volumes!
There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that his "science" has any validity, on the contrary, his methods are dismissed very easily by the medical community. I am not aware of any genuine case that this laser therapy has helped anyone. Wilden has some kind of wonder-spa, somewhere in Ibiza (a famous vacation resort for german people with lots of money but poor taste - nothing against Ibiza but against the holiday facilities germans have constructed there). There he supposedly performs his laser-BS-voodoo. He has been discussed intensively on german forums like this one and imo there is nothing that differentiates him from other con-artists like Dr. Greuel, Dr. Shamesh etc.

Guys and gals: cardinal rule:

ANYBODY WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE THE CURE FOR TINNITUS IS A SCAM-ARTIST.

If there will be a true cure one day, we will find out soon enough!

Save your money.

 

[Bobby B]

@MarioT Where did you see that Wilden claims to cure chronic tinntius ?

Please show us some links to prove it

All he claims is that people with noise damage can expect a 20% hearing range improvement on average using phototherapy.
And if the acoustic trauma is very recent then improvements can be even better - provided the damage is not too much - so maybe as a result tinnitus will get softer and easier to habitutate

Also Zazzio made a study that shows that light therapy improves H

Do you understand the difference ?

And why are making a point about Ibiza ? he was doing the same therapy from a small town in Germany for 20 years so because he recently moves to Ibiza this makes it a scam but not doing it from the small German town ?

And if you have T dues to stress then of course there is no point whatsoever to ever consider such therapy so why are you even interested in this ?

 

[Bobby B]

here is one study:

the myelin sheath thickness and GAP43 expression levels were significantly enhanced in sciatic nerve-crushed rats receiving 808-nm LLLT at 3 and 8 J/cm(2). Taken together, these results suggest that 808-nm LLLT at a low energy density (3 J/cm(2) and 8 J/cm(2)) is capable of enhancing sciatic nerve regeneration following a crush injury.

here is another study

Tinnitus study signals new advance in understanding link between exposure to loud sounds and hearing loss
Posted by er134 at Feb 14, 2014 10:45 AM | Permalink
Leicester research reveals why hearing loss is correlated with auditory signals failing to get transmitted along the auditory nerve
Issued by University of Leicester Press Office on 14 February 2014

A research team investigating tinnitus, from the University of Leicester, has revealed new insights into the link between the exposure to loud sounds and hearing loss.

Their study, published this week in J Neurosci, helps to understand how damage to myelin – a protection sheet around cells - alters the transmission of auditory signals occurring during hearing loss.

The three-year study was derived from a PhD studentship funded by Action on Hearing Loss. It was led by Dr Martine Hamann, Lecturer in Neurosciences at the University's Department of Cell Physiology and Pharmacology.

Dr Hamann said: "A previous publication has shown that exposure to loud sound damages the myelin which is the protection sheet around cells. We have now shown the closer links between a deficit in the "myelin" sheath surrounding the auditory nerve and hearing loss. It becomes obvious why hearing loss is correlated with auditory signals failing to get transmitted along the auditory nerve.

 

[canyonero]

I really think Wilden audiograms are faked. LLLT definitely doesn't help with T for a lot of people. I'm pretty sure it doesn't make a big difference for a lot of people if it does work at all.
Also, I don't see what advantage a laser has over the sun or a normal lamp for this purpose.

 

[Reinier]

the myelin sheath thickness and GAP43 expression levels were significantly enhanced in sciatic nerve-crushed rats receiving 808-nm LLLT at 3 and 8 J/cm(2). Taken together, these results suggest that 808-nm LLLT at a low energy density (3 J/cm(2) and 8 J/cm(2)) is capable of enhancing sciatic nerve regeneration following a crush injury.

@Bobby B could you post a shortcut to this study?
This looks interesting. I would like to understand why LLLT could work. Perhaps this study has been posted before on this forum and I missed it.

Also, I don't see what advantage a laser has over the sun or a normal lamp for this purpose.

Playing the devil's advocate role:
One explanation could be that, although sun rays do have the same properties in its spectrum (visible and infra-red light), the rays are not reaching the middle ear. Let alone the inner ear or periphery of the inner ear. So the advantage of a laser could be the controlled and directed beam.

 

[Bobby B]

the sun has harmful rays - UV - you don't want that on your cells

Also the full spectrum generates too much heat as its absorbed by various tissues, blood and water
the best wave lengths are 0.6nm to 1.5nm thats what is called a therapeutic window.
So if you want enough power to penetrate tissues you need laser, LED diodes or polarized light which can pass through skin and bones and not generate much heat or be dimished greatly and still deliver enough light to the cells

Read this a lot of basic info here
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3288797/

 

[Bobby B]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25119457

there are other several similar studies on nerve regeneration

 

[canyonero]

the sun has harmful rays - UV - you don't want that on your cells

Also the full spectrum generates too much heat as its absorbed by various tissues, blood and water
the best wave lengths are 0.6nm to 1.5nm thats what is called a therapeutic window.
So if you want enough power to penetrate tissues you need laser, LED diodes or polarized light which can pass through skin and bones and not generate much heat or be dimished greatly and still deliver enough light to the cells

Read this a lot of basic info here
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3288797/

1.5nm is in the xray part of the spectrum.

 

[Bobby B]

Sorry I meant to write micro meter
According to Hamblin from Harvard University the major therapeutic effect is between 800 to 1200 nm

There is a good video on YouTube - user selfhacked where Hamblin goes over what light therapy does

 

[Bobby B]

 

[Cityjohn]

@Henry1492

I'm holding two supposed studies here by Dr. Wilden he has shown at the 13th biannual and 14th annual DGLM, and one by a group from the university of Munich. He notes that 780nm does not relieve T while both 690 and 830nm yield 40% improvements which is 20% above placebo. The T reduction yields are between 10 and 14 dB, and hearing improvement of 20%. The Munich group notes the same thing when concerning wavelength and 40% response rate.

He also gave you the correct information as his website http://www.dr-wilden.de/ehtmls/pub.html includes his publications on the subject.

I don't think Dr. Wilden has malicious intentions. At least he believes quite firmly that LLLT has merit and he's not the only one. He also does try to get more people involved into the work but few have the ears for it... forgive the pun.

 

[MarioT]

@MarioT Where did you see that Wilden claims to cure chronic tinntius ?

Please show us some links to prove it

Here is an entertaining one (german):


==> He has been claiming that he can "succesfully treat" T since the 90s. The above video showcases an older lady who got rid of her T and Meniere's symptoms.

@MarioT
All he claims is that people with noise damage can expect a 20% hearing range improvement on average using phototherapy.
And if the acoustic trauma is very recent then improvements can be even better - provided the damage is not too much - so maybe as a result tinnitus will get softer and easier to habitutate

==>
I bet he can also improve a septum deviation by 20% (on average) via shining his flashlight though your nose.
Funny thing, his theory I mean, that neuronal hair cells in the inner ear have the ability to regenerate. Scientific consensus pretty much agrees upon the fact that no mammal can do that. But hey, what do they know, here we are dealing with magic lasers man

PS: If the trauma is recent, chances are your auditory perception will improve anyway without any treatment whatsoever.

@MarioT
Also Zazzio made a study that shows that light therapy improves H

Do you understand the difference ?

==> no, i don't need to. A random study of some random scientist may be total BS. Unfortunately i know, I am a one myself.
If instead, a good bunch of random scientists all do a similar study, following a set of commonly accepted rules that allows them to validate the outcomes objectively, then here we have a different story.

@MarioT
And why are making a point about Ibiza ? he was doing the same therapy from a small town in Germany for 20 years so because he recently moves to Ibiza this makes it a scam but not doing it from the small German town ?

==> just a matter of taste and image. He is calling his practice a "spa". I rest my case.

@MarioT
And if you have T dues to stress then of course there is no point whatsoever to ever consider such therapy so why are you even interested in this ?

==> Cool that you seem to have the expertise to differentiate between the pathology of stress and noise induced T! Chapeau to you.

Last remark: If you are still convinced that Wilden is your man, then go ahead, do the treatment and spend your earned money. Sometimes just the belief that something will work can make a difference (a.k.a the placebo effect). Good luck!