Learn from Others' Mistakes

[AZeurotuner]

What if he's right, tho?

Right to make a teenager feel like crap for wanting to attended his school's dance recital? Bill says to evaluate risk and reward and chose wisely when he's being called out. Other times he shows his true colors and lambasts folks for wanting to attend low risk events that they say are important to them, such a weddings. He picks out the few times he's given reasonable advice and quotes himself in his replies to give appearance of rationality.

And don't even get me started on his quoting of others as evidence that we should follow his advice. Most of the members quoted are the stressful, anxious types, the kind of people that start a forum thread every time a door slams. These anecdotal observations should not be confused with actually scientific data or research.

 

[TuneOut]

I believe ears that recently got t behave differently than ears that have had t a while. How differently and at what noise level is up to each individual pair of ears. I believe there is a difference.

I believe that to be true, as well. And I believe the same holds for T that has recently worsened. An injury needs to be allowed to heal without further insult. This includes preventing not just sound exposure but stress and anxiety. Once the ears are strong again, they are more resilient, I believe. But I only base this on my own experience and reasoning.

 

[Jiri]

Right to make a teenager feel like crap for wanting to attended his school's dance recital?

No, not in that context. In general. See, this the problem with these "discussions", they lead absolutely nowhere. There is NEVER a clear conclusion as to what's right & what's wrong in the end. Just another argument on TT. Like an ongoing, never ending battle between two Great Houses in a TV show or smth. Everyone is cherry picking in their own way and there's a lot of bias too. People's experiences differ. That's why I stand behind what I stated earlier on in this thread.

Let's just take this to another lvl. Imma quote myself now, so don't get fired up. I got another angle on it.

How about this? This topic is already a never ending story. There are academics on this forum. Let's do a small reasearch project then, using both qualitative and quantitative methods of analysis. It'd be a peer-reviewed paper and let's have it published in a reputable tinnitus journal. 5000 words ish limit?

This could make a real difference and would draw more attention to this issue from other professionals in the field.

Findings would be reported using an empirical report structure (IMRD): Introduction, Methods, Results and Discussion sections.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Bill I've seen you shame high school students for wanting to attend dance recitals with earplugs.

If their T is recent, then that would, in fact be an insane risk to take. But of course if their benefit of that dance recital is higher than the expected cost, then by all means they should go.

Today I needed to get a quote at an electronics store. When I entered that store, I discovered that they had a somewhat loud TV program playing (they sell TVs). It wasn't Too loud, and I was wearing an earplug. I wanted to leave, but it didn't seem that loud, and it took only a couple of minutes for me to get my quote and leave. At no point was I stressed out. Now my T is clearly louder.

You flip flop constantly in an attempt to save face

I am doing everything I can to be consistent. My position has always been "don't do the crime, if you can't do the time." I happen to know that I can't "do the time".

Right to make a teenager feel like crap for wanting to attended his school's dance recital? Bill says to evaluate risk and reward and chose wisely when he's being called out.

I had just assumed that the teenager would also assigns an infinitely large negative value to getting a permanent spike (I believe this conclusion was based on that person's previous posts). If this is the case, then that cost-benefit analysis would imply not to take the risk. But I guess if the teenager assigns an infinite positive benefit to the recital, then his or her decision might be different. So now I spelled out the model that I have had in mind all of this time.

 

[AZeurotuner]

. I wanted to leave,

Literally one sentence later...

At no point was I stressed out.

So if you weren't stressed out than why did you want to leave? You contradict yourself so often that you don't even realize that you're doing it.

 

[AZeurotuner]

No, not in that context. In general. See, this the problem with these "discussions", they lead absolutely nowhere. There is NEVER a clear conclusion as to what's right & what's wrong. Just another argument on TT. Like an ongoing, never ending battle between two Great Houses in a TV show or smth. Everyone is cherring picking in their own way and there's a lot of bias too. People's experiences differ. That's why I stand behind what I stated earlier on in this thread.

Let's just take this to another lvl. Imma quote myself now, so don't get fired up. I got another angle on it.

I'm not arguing that a tinnitus sufferers ears are as resist to noises as a healthy individuals are. Go through my posts and you will never find anything of the sort. What I'm saying is there are plenty of activities we can still enjoy as long as we take the appropriate precautions. Bill advocates abstaining from practically everything, I don't believe there's healthy for the majority of people.

 

[Jiri]

What I'm saying is there are plenty of activities we can still enjoy

As long as the noise is not brutal per se. What I agree with Bill on is, that within the first year or more we should be protective of our hearing. That's basically what a tinnitus ENT pro told me way back in Prague. Within that time frame ears do have the capability to recover. Just quotting. That makes sense. Then go with your gut feelings probably.

abstaining from practically everything, I don't believe there's healthy for the majority of people.

Yeah, that's... I couldn't do it. I am a social type and currently the suffering is real, so can't socialiaze anyway. Plus I'm basically a psych. drug addict too now sooo, yeah. I gotta abstain. I hate my life.

Ok. I see, you weren't too excited about my idea. How about flipping a coin then or asking The Hodgetwins themselves for advice. I'm sure they'd show us some tough love. I'll email them tomorrow...

 

[Bill Bauer]

Literally one sentence later...

"I wanted to leave" = "I contemplated leaving". I might have been stressed out had they turned the sound on while I was there. But I heard it when I came in, calmly weighed pros and cons of leaving and decided to proceed.

So if you weren't stressed out than why did you want to leave?

I was thinking whether or not it was loud enough to warrant leaving. On one hand, I didn't want to take any chances with my tinnitus. On the other hand, I estimated the chance that my T would be negatively affected to be low.

Bill advocates abstaining from practically everything

I advocate listening to your body to figure out how likely various activities are to have a negative impact on your T, and not taking any chances with T, unless you are prepared to face the consequences. I don't feel like I am abstaining from much. The only thing that I will be abstaining from that I feel somewhat bad about is riding a motorboat during one of the future vacations.

 

[AZeurotuner]

As long as the noise is not brutal per se. What I agree with Bill on is, that within the first year or more we should be protective of our hearing. That's basically what a tinnitus ENT pro told me way back in Prague. Within that time frame ears do have a capability to recover. Just quotting. That makes sense. Then go with your gut feelings probably.

Yeah, that's... I couldn't do it. I am a social type and currently the suffering is real, so can't socialiaze anyway. Plus I'm basically a drug addict now too sooo, yeah. I gotta abstain. I hate my life.

I agree that it makes sense to be careful in the early stages of tinnitus. However, Bill is still following his "protocol" more than a year in, and has suggested others that aren't in the early stages to do the same thing. I don't have a problem with some of Bill's advice, but some if it is just flat out wrong.

Ok. I see, you weren't too excited about my idea. How about flipping a coin then or asking The Hodgetwins themselves for advice. I'm sure they're gonna show us some tough love. I'll email them tomorrow...

You're misinterpreting what I wrote, never said I was against a research study. What I am saying is that with adequate protection there's no reason why we can't attend low risk social events. I'm not suggesting that members attend rock concerts or loud night clubs. Just because Bill is fine with not dating, hanging out with friends, and attending social events doesn't mean the rest of us are. It's very easy for him to make these recommendations because to him people are just an annoyance. Even if he didn't have tinnitus he would still follow this regime, he has said so many times.

 

[Gman]

@billbauer quoted me and whilst it is a snippet of the full post, it is still totally relevant.
We all want to get better or at least not get worse. Had I known at the start what I know now from posts and links from many at TT including Bill, I may have been in a much better place now.

Im really quite sick of all this nonsense. Rather than attacking the post of others, use your energy to provide support to people who need it.

Anyway it's up to the individual what he or she takes from this forum. It's certainly more informative than anything the majority of doctors can provide, who are generally hopeless.

 

[Jiri]

@AZeurotuner See how this is a vicious circle? It only verifies what I said awhile ago.

What I am saying is that with adequate protection there's no reason why we can't attend low risk social events.

Ok, then there's gonna be another "discussion" as to what is actually adequate protection for different low risk social events. Some people with low t. will have no probs while others with 'reactive' t. will just be a bit of train wrecks after?

A lot has to do with one's stress levels too. I see a lot of youtubers with what you'd call a moderate t. going to bars and socializing just fine. They say, they don't suffer from t. anymore. They just have it. All they use are foam earplugs.

For real, we need to rank up in league and do a study with the sources we have. Be proactive about it.

These arguments always leave more questions than answers....

 

[AZeurotuner]

"I wanted to leave" = "I contemplated leaving". I might have been stressed out had they turned the sound on while I was there. But I heard it when I came in, calmly weighed pros and cons of leaving and decided to proceed.

I have a hard to believing that you didn't, at the very least, experience of modicum of stress considering that fact that you self admittingly wanted to leave. When I don't think sometimes too loud the thought of leaving doesn't even cross my mind.

I advocate listening to your body to figure out how likely various activities are to have a negative impact on your T, and not taking any chances with T, unless you are prepared to face the consequences. I don't feel like I am abstaining from much. The only thing that I will be abstaining from that I feel somewhat bad about is riding a motorboat during one of the future vacations.

Exactly! You don't feel like you're abstaining from much, you have said many times that you weren't much a social person to begin with. It's painfully easy for you to sit here and recommend for people avoid certain activities because you wouldn't have engaged in said activity even before you got tinnitus. You're treating everyone else like yourself, when the fact of the matter here is that most of us are a lot more social oriented people than you are. You accuse the other side of a not taking into consideration individual differences, yet fail do to do yourself.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Bill is still following his "protocol" more than a year in

I am not. A year ago, I cancelled my trip to Alaska. This year, I went on a major road trip. On that trip, I found out that I seem to be more resilient compared to a year ago.

with adequate protection there's no reason why we can't attend low risk social events

That hasn't been the experience of the people I quoted in this thread. Note that by now around 6 people whom I quoted in the first post had posted here, and none of them said that I quoted them out of context or had misinterpreted their post.

You're treating everyone else like yourself, when the fact of the matter here is that most of us are a lot more social oriented people than you are.

I am assuming that everyone assigns a huge negative value to the outcome of having a permanent increase in T.

In any case, we Are obviously going in circles here.

 

[Anselmo]

@Tinker Bell: I have never experienced vertigo with my tinnitus, but after reading your list, I think I have some.

 

[AZeurotuner]

@AZeurotuner See how this is a vicious circle? It only verifies what I said awhile ago.

Ok, then there's gonna be another "discussion" as to what is actually adequate protection for different low risk social events. Some people with low t. will have no probs while others with 'reactive' t. will just be a bit of train wrecks after?

A lot has to do with one's stress levels too. I see a lot of youtubers with what you'd call a moderate t. going to bars and socializing just fine. They say, they don't suffer from t. anymore. They just have it. All they use are foam earplugs.

For real, we need to rank up in league and do a study with the resources we have. Be proactive about it.

These arguments always leave more questions than answers....

I have reactive T, many different tones, and profound hearing loss in the higher frequencies, and I've it for years. I can guarantee you my hearing damage is much more extensive than most of the folks on here. I'm not some guy with low T who doesn't understand I'm talking about. Yes, we need to be more careful than individuals with healthy ears, but with quality earplugs, there are plenty of things we can still do.

Now that I have her running again I drive a LOUD (tried to make her quiet but just ain't happening with 3 inch mandrel bent stainless and very little sound insulation) track car one a week to stretch her legs, with track events as well with no increases in T. I can promise you that the interior decibels are much higher than that of a wedding, not concert loud but still quite noisy. Proper protection and stress management is the key as well as giving your ears a break in between loud events. T shouldn't be a death sentence...

 

[fishbone]

I am assuming that everyone assigns a huge negative value to the outcome of having a permanent increase in T.

In any case, we Are obviously going in circles here.

Just because people are social and have a LIFE does not ALWAYS have an outcome of them having an permanent increase in their tinnitus. I cannot expect someone with 1 year of tinnitus to post anything better, my bad...

Do you even know what it means to be social?

 

[AZeurotuner]

I am not. A year ago, I cancelled my trip to Alaska. This year, I went on a major road trip. On that trip, I found out that I seem to be more resilient compared to a year ago.

That hasn't been the experience of the people I quoted in this thread. Note that by now around 6 people whom I quoted in the first post had posted here, and none of them said that I quoted them out of context or had misinterpreted their post.


I am assuming that everyone assigns a huge negative value to the outcome of having a permanent increase in T.

In any case, we Are obviously going in circles here.

Oh my goodness Bill you just said you were able to take a trip to Alaska (definitely risks there, especially with flying)... Then you turn around and say things like that should be avoided. Which one is it Bill? Once AGAIN you have contradicted yourself, I don't know why I bother even trying to have a conversation with you.

 

[Jiri]

T shouldn't be a death sentence...

For many was, tho. I heard they call it the "suicidal syndrome" in the U.S.A. (source: a youtuber with tinnitus.. I kno).

If what you say is true, then I'm happy for you that you can lead a semi-normal life and a bit envious too tbh. I hope to reach that level one day. Still, why can't we join forces and do a good quality small research project?

This is how science works: You have a theory/hypothesis and you need to carry out an experiment (or an analysis) to either prove your theory/hypothesis right, or wrong. Then you have it peer reviewed and if it's good enough, it might get published. Loads of people could benefit from it then. A far cry from what's happening in these threads.

Wouldn't that be awesome?

Anyways, I also heard that there's a TT guide coming out soon, so really looking forward to that.

 

[kelpiemsp]

No, not in that context. In general. See, this the problem with these "discussions", they lead absolutely nowhere. There is NEVER a clear conclusion as to what's right & what's wrong in the end. Just another argument on TT. Like an ongoing, never ending battle between two Great Houses in a TV show or smth. Everyone is cherry picking in their own way and there's a lot of bias too. People's experiences differ. That's why I stand behind what I stated earlier on in this thread.

Let's just take this to another lvl. Imma quote myself now, so don't get fired up. I got another angle on it.

Academics are on this forum and they are publishing

 

[AZeurotuner]

For many was, tho. I heard they call it the "suicidal syndrome" in the U.S.A. (source: a youtuber with tinnitus.. I kno).

If what you say is true, then I'm happy for you that you can lead a semi-normal life and a bit envious too tbh. I hope to reach that level one day. Still, why can't we join forces and do a good quality small research project?

This is how science works: You have a theory/hypothesis and you need to carry out an experiment (or an analysis) to either prove your theory/hypothesis right, or wrong. Then you have it peer reviewed and if it's good enough, it might get published. Loads of people could benefit from it then. A far cry from what's happening in these threads.

Wouldn't that be awesome?

Anyways, I also heard that there's a TT guide coming out soon, so really looking forward to that.

The reason I don't really care (I'm not against one, important distinction) about a research study is that it would be extremely hard to obtain consistent results among the participants. Tinnitus isn't something you can measure scientifically, you must depend on the observations made by the individuals in the study.

Not only that but unless all the volunteers attend the exact same events or do the exact same activities, at the same time, you won't be able to accurately compare damage or tinnitus increases, or lack of damage or increases.

Many of the folks advocating for Bill are either newbies or naturally anxious people. Tinnitus is agitated BIG TIME by stress, and both of these groups of people are usually going to be under a good amount of it. This turns into a vicious cycle of T spikes and worrying.

Can I guarentee that I won't get an increase from a loud event? Of course not, but nothing in life is guarenteed... Heck even when you're home alone, "safe" from noise, something could happen. My friend recently told me he accidentally dropped a large stainless steel pan in his kitchen and that his ears rang all night. You're never "safe"...

As for the "suicide syndrome" thing, I have never head that term used before in my life, it is most definitely not something people say in America. I know plenty of people (in real life) with tinnitus that live happy, fulfilling lives.

 

[Jiri]

Academics are on this forum and they are publishing

Ok? So then let's do what I suggested.

Or not. It was just an idea after all.

@AZeurotuner

I hear you. Thanks for the chat. It's 5 a.m. here. I'll try to get a wink of sleep now.

 

[AZeurotuner]

Ok? So then let's do what I suggested.

Or not. It was just an idea after all.

@AZeurotuner

I hear you. Thanks for the chat. It's 5 a.m. here. I'll try to get a wink of sleep now.

I appreciate the debate Jiri, no hard feelings, the fact that we all have unique opinions on matters such as this is what makes us human. I wish you luck brother...

-Ross

 

[Jiri]

I appreciate the debate Jiri, no hard feelings, the fact that we all have unique opinions on matters such as this is what makes us human. I wish you luck brother...

Thanks, bro. No hard feelings. It was a good debate.

I still can't sleep. My tinnitus has been brutal this past week. I blame the drugs.

A Guniea pig. Wish I had never agreed to take them. Cause and effect.

Take care,

Jiri

 

[Bill Bauer]

Just because people are social and have a LIFE does not ALWAYS have an outcome of them having an permanent increase in their tinnitus.

It is hilarious that you would say that I don't have a life. I guess we have different definitions of what constitutes a life. In any case, you were the one to emphasize the word "always" above. See, if one assigns an infinite negative value to an outcome, if an action carries a nonzero probability of that outcome, it should not be taken (as the expected value is going to be negative).

Bill you just said you were able to take a trip to Alaska (definitely risks there, especially with flying).

I canceled my trip to Alaska last year. This year, I visited Europe.

(definitely risks there, especially with flying)

Not true. Over the past 16 months, I don't remember seeing any posts where someone (who has had T for over a year) had been wearing hearing protection throughout the flight and ended up regretting taking the flight (as a result of T). And TRUST Me, I was looking very carefully for posts like that. This forum is filled with testimonies of people saying that they ended up being ok after the flight. I found the inside of an Airbus plane to almost be almost noise free (when I wore earplugs under Bose noise cancelling headphones or Peltor muffs).

 

[Alvise]

I saw my quote over there.
My spike disappeared after 26 days. Had another few weeeks later, disappeared too after 2 days. T is mild now. Still have H.
Since I became father, I had less time to think about T, and it improved. Have it since 15 month.

 

[AZeurotuner]

I canceled my trip to Alaska last year. This year, I visited Europe

Semantics...

Not true. Over the past 16 months, I don't remember seeing any posts where someone (who has had T for over a year) had been wearing hearing protection throughout the flight and ended up regretting taking the flight (as a result of T). And TRUST Me, I was looking very carefully for posts like that. This forum is filled with testimonies of people saying that they ended up being ok after the flight. I found the inside of an Airbus plane to almost be almost noise free (when I wore earplugs under Bose noise cancelling headphones or Peltor muffs).

Unbeknownst to yourself you have just proved my point. You took precautions on the flight, and I'm sure you did as well in Europe, which I'm sure didn't soundproof the continent for your arrival. But god forbid some poor teenager attend a dance recital... He must be shamed right?

 

[Tinker Bell]

I saw my quote over there.
My spike disappeared after 26 days. Had another few weeeks later, disappeared too after 2 days. T is mild now. Still have H.
Since I became father, I had less time to think about T, and it improved. Have it since 15 month.

Thank you for updating! Interesting to see that you are yet another member with hyperacusis quoted by the author.

Given this trend, I do not think we should overlook the potential role hyperacusis plays in tinnitus spikes. It may be a key factor.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I do not think we should overlook the potential role hyperacusis plays in tinnitus spikes.

H is common among new sufferers. So perhaps this means that people with recent T onset take these risks (because they don't know better) and end up regretting it.

 

[Tinker Bell]

H is common among new sufferers. So perhaps this means that people with recent T onset take these risks (because they don't know better) and end up regretting it.

Or perhaps it means people with hyperacusis are more likely to have T spikes.

Check your quoted sources. How many had hyperacusis? How long did they have T before the spike? We can't learn from them if we fail to understand their individual circumstances.

For example, @derpytia is quoted. She has had tinnitus for four years. She also has significant hearing loss. We should not overlook the role of that either.

 

[fishbone]

Or perhaps it means people with hyperacusis are more likely to have T spikes.

Check your quoted sources. How many had hyperacusis? How long did they have T before the spike? We can't learn from them if we fail to understand their individual circumstances.

He doesn't know them and their situations. His whole thread proves nothing ,except that he can copy n paste and just spread fear and paranoia. I don't see why the mods, let this garbage thread still exist....