Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

Why would the FDA even care ? This isn't Food or Drugs
It's not even capable of blinding someone from a distance like a regular laser since the beam isn't even focused
 
I think the FDA would intervene if a company would want to market this device in the USA and claim "that it improves hearing loss" without FDA approved studies backing up that claim, but for individual imports I don't see what the problem would be.
 
@Bobby B , thanks, I am rather new to the world of what can be imported or not. An earlier post said something about Lulu at Lucky Laser being worried about US Customs, hence my apprehension.

May I ask a related question? I would use it for personal use, so fine, I will proceed and order one. But let's say a professional, licensed medical provider in the United States (say, an audiologist) would like to treat patients with the Lucky Laser. Could they do it, as long as the patient signed something saying they understand there are no FDA studies saying it will work and that it is experimental? Or would the medical provider be prevented from using it for some reason? Any insights on this appreciated.
 
No idea about professional use - but taking money from clients based on claims which may or may not be easily proven opens a whole new cans of worms in regards to what how it's regulated . And If someone was treated and says his hearing got worse then sues you ? That would be risky ...Are you planning on running a business ?
 
Definitely not thinking of opening a business along these lines. Have my hands full trying to improve my severe hyperacusis.

But I have been in some conversations with both providers in the United States who are interested in potentially offering cold laser therapy for inner ear disorders and with providers in Europe who have made some attempts (unsuccessful) to bring their protocols to the United States. There seems to be a real opportunity to help many desperate patients in the US if the code can be cracked on how to expand the European clinical experience to the States. I am not really sure what the barriers are, just starting to delve into this, and trying to understand what are the issues, if any, from an FDA perspective.
 
Could they do it, as long as the patient signed something saying they understand there are no FDA studies saying it will work and that it is experimental? Or would the medical provider be prevented from using it for some reason? Any insights on this appreciated.

Hi, so, I'm also in the DC area and I know at least one functional medicine provider who does laser stuff here. I don't think there are really any legal obstacles to this; it was not hard for me to try a laser treatment for my ears.

Note that I am very, very much in the "skeptic" camp on this; lasers have been around for quite a while, lots of people have attempted laser treatment of hearing disorders, and yet there's no good evidence that it actually works. I've also been following this thread for a long time, and as far as I know no one has been cured of any of this. So, I think it's basically a scam, but that said, it's a legal scam as far as I know.

If you want the contact information for the doctor I have mentioned, I am happy to share it in PM; you probably don't have much to lose besides your money (you are looking at 200 bucks a pop with this person).

note: I'm not interested in getting in to a long, drawn-out argument about the merits of LLLT; it's a free country, I'm free to think it's hogwash and you're free to think it's the best thing since sliced bread. This is why I generally refrain from posting in this thread. But, since you're in the area, I wanted to at least pass on my local experience with this -- and because I do think it's hogwash, I do not feel right about passing it on without all those caveats. Despite having a rather dim view of LLLT, I do have good feelings about the practitioner I have seen; I think she is a nice lady who wants to help people who have not been helped by mainstream medicine.
 
@FERNANDO GIL , do you know what lasers are shown in the two photographs of patients receiving treatment here:

http://cooperativemedicine.com/laser-therapy/ear-disorders/


Also, are you familiar with the Microlight ML830 laser? Would it be effective? Specifications:

Diodes - Three gallium aluminum arsenide laser diodes
Coherent - Beam travels in a straight line
Monochromatic - Form a single wavelength
Polarized - Beam is concentrated in one location or spot
Power - 30 milliwatts per diode
Wavelength - 830 nanometers
Energy Delivers 3 joules of energy per 33 second treatment cycle

http://www.ml830wholesale.com/en/content/7-ml830-cold-laser

Thank you!
Go with the Lucky laser if possible. You will have two wavelenghts, is always good twi have the two options.
With time you will learn that.
Last month I decided to make a morestrong treatment. So during 5 days I made 2 hours each ear, with two wave lenghts at full power each. Now i decided to give a break and some times i just make 10 minuts at 650 nm /30Mw.
So you can see you can have more otptions.

I did even used 808 at 600 Mw pulsed. Wich give more power. So the options are endless.

The think is that i don´t know if you get in the US, but i know some peolple manga o get it.

Fernando
 
There are a few studies on LLLT
One with rats after accoustic trauma and improved hair cells - clear evidence that LLLT does something to the ear At least In rats...
A few other studies in terms of nerves regeneration using near infrared light
Theses wavenelgths aren't cold laser btw
Cold is shorter wavelengths
 
Interesting PowerPoint presentation on LLLT for hyperacusis from the July 2015 International Conference on Hyperacusis (ICH2) in London by Otoclinica:

http://media.wix.com/ugd/463b0d_812559e099074a15aec228663ad47a52.pdf

A related link I posted earlier but adding it again because it goes along with the PowerPoint:

http://www.researchposters.com/Posters/AAOHNSF/AAO2014/SP327.pdf

Would be really interesting to hear about the experiences from anyone here on TTalk who has been treated for hyperacusis by Otoclinica.
 
Interesting PowerPoint presentation on LLLT for hyperacusis from the July 2015 International Conference on Hyperacusis (ICH2) in London by Otoclinica:

http://media.wix.com/ugd/463b0d_812559e099074a15aec228663ad47a52.pdf

A related link I posted earlier but adding it again because it goes along with the PowerPoint:

http://www.researchposters.com/Posters/AAOHNSF/AAO2014/SP327.pdf

Would be really interesting to hear about the experiences from anyone here on TTalk who has been treated for hyperacusis by Otoclinica.

And here are some thoughts about that laser study from Iver Juster, MD.
http://hyperacusisresearch.org/hyperacusis-ich2-report/
 
So, here is my full report on my 5 day treatment with Anne Harila at Laserklinikken in Sandvika. Please take into account that this is my personal and subjective experience and opinions and nothing else! I have added the precise technical details of the treatment at the end of the post.

First of all I want to say that both Anne and her college Petter were very friendly and helpful during the week I was there. Although, from the point of view of a patient I was a bit concerned about a few things. First of all, I did not undergo any questioning or examination before the treatment commenced. They did not ask me anything about my hearing or tinnitus. Not how long I've had it, how I got it, when it's better/worse, if I have any inherited hearing impediment, nothing! This was a bit odd in my opinion. I was just showed into one of the rooms and started the treatment straight away.

I unfortunately have to say that Anne did not make a very good impression on me as a "health professional". With the risk of sounding cynical I feel I got a little bit too much of the "alternative medicine -vibe", with statements and claims about the treatment being made with an ease and confidence that just made it less credible in the end, if you know what I mean.

The treatment took place between January 4th to 8th. Every day I did between 3 to 5 hours of continuous sessions, using different machines and different wavelengths/strengths. And yes, the main machine was the Lucky Laser from China. I dozed in and out of sleep most of the time and also tried to practice some mindfulness meditation every now and then.

Unfortunately I did not during the treatment, and have not now about a week later, felt any difference in my hearing or tinnitus whatsoever. It's not been getting better, it's not been getting worse, it's not been changing in any way. Just nothing! I know it's said that it usually takes weeks, even months, before a change becomes apparent, but at least on this forum I feel most people who've done "power sessions" say they feel at least some change fairly instantly? Or did I get this all wrong?

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed though, maybe I'll gradually see some change in the coming weeks. I'm still considering buying a lucky laser, even though I have to say my hopes about LLLT has dwindled a bit at this point.

Here are some info on my T that might also be useful in the matter:
- Got it first from driving a loud moped when I was 17 (2001)
- It's a high pitch hiss, at around 12kHz. (Old TV-noise)
- Habituated after a few months, lived well with it without seeking much help until April 2014.
- In April 2014 I had an accident with my stereo that created a spike that didn't go down.
- It's now louder and constantly flickering/unstable, like constantly turning a radio dial.
- Since then it's also more "reactive". I hear it everywhere except the shower. Loud and clear right beside a busy highway for ex.


Treatment journal

Monday, Jan 4th:

30 Min
808nm / 320mw - probes inside the ears
650nm / 120mw - probes behind the ears

30 Min
808nm / 320mw - probes behind the ears
650nm / 120mw - probes inside the ears

30 Min
632,8nm / 120mw - left ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)

30 Min
632,6nm / 120mw - right ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)

30 Min
820nm / 450mw - inside of ears

30 Min
659nm / 250mw - inside of ears

15 Min
632,8nm / 120mw - left ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)

15 Min
632,6nm / 120mw - right ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)


Tuesday, Jan 5th:

1 Hour
808nm / 448 mw - probes inside of ears

1 Hour
650nm / 150mw - probes nside of ears

30 Min
632,8nm / 120mw - left ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)

30 Min
632,6nm / 120mw - right ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)

50 Min
830nm / 500mw - probes in both ears
820nm / 500mw - probes behind ears


Wednesday, Jan 6th:

1 Hour
808nm / 480mw - inside both ears
650nm / 120mw - behind both ears

1 Hour
808nm / 480mw - behind both ears
650nm / 120mw - inside both ears

25 Min
904 nm / 200mw - 700z - pulsating neck-massage-laser

10 Min
808nm / 1000mw - pulsating neck-massage-laser

30 Min
632,8nm / 120mw - left ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)

30 Min
632,6nm / 120mw - right ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)


Thursday, Jan 7th:

1 Hour
808nm / 500mw - inside both ears
650nm / 120mw - behind both ears

1 Hour
808nm / 500mw - behind both ears
650nm / 120mw - inside both ears

50 Min
632,8nm / 120mw - left ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)

50 Min
632,6nm / 120mw - right ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)


Friday, Jan 8th:

1 Hour
808nm / 500mw - inside left ear ears
650nm / 120mw - inside right ear

1 Hour
808nm / 500mw - inside right ear ears
650nm / 120mw - inside left ear

30 Min
632,8nm / 120mw - left ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)

30 Min
632,6nm / 120mw - right ear (laser shooting from about 50cm away)
 
They did not ask me anything about my hearing or tinnitus. Not how long I've had it, how I got it, when it's better/worse, if I have any inherited hearing impediment, nothing! This was a bit odd in my opinion. I was just showed into one of the rooms and started the treatment straight away.
I have not been part of this thread for a long time. As such, I don't recommend anything. All I have done is share my experience with LLLT. If, however, I were to recommend anything - as choice between Dr. Wilden and Anne Harila, my choice would fall upon Dr. Wilden. And there is one simple reason for that: he monitors the treatment using audiometric assessment throughout: not to demonstrate an improvement in hearing, but to demonstrate that the treatment is working. The difference may seem subtle, but there is a difference.

Now that your treatment is over, you are in essence left empty-handed. That wouldn't have been the case with Dr. Wilden.

I have previously shared my audiograms here on the forum. I have also shared photos of the audiological facility Dr. Wilden had in Regensburg.
 
Thanks a lot for taking the time to write this report.
one question - on the longer session using the lucky laser, was it pulsating or continuous ?
 
I read a report of a guy whose relative was a professional DJ and got T reduction like half and Db back on LLLT too so it's possible but it may take time - months perhaps a year and that's when you are a good candidate with recent loss
 
I read a report of a guy whose relative was a professional DJ and got T reduction like half and Db back on LLLT too so it's possible but it may take time - months perhaps a year and that's when you are a good candidate with recent loss

This was actually my uncle. Several ENTs told him he'd gone deaf on one ear and would not get it back. LLLT restored almost all hearing and bettered his T as well.
 
Hi all.
As someone that did made the tretament either in Dr Wilden an Anne. Maybe is time to put some imput.
as @Philip83 said Anne is fully in "alternative medicine -vibe" and it is, trust me Dr Wilden it is as well.
Booth of them had been pressure from the big pharamcie companies so they have that is comum.

I did discuss with Anne why she does not make audiograms, she said she had done that in the past, and stoped. The reason is easy, you are a judge in your own case. Dr Wilden is acused of faking the results with audiograms, ( wich i do not think so), being such a controversial treatment it is best to do it by someone else to show the results of the treatment. Before you to Dr Wilden or Anne or any other you should do an audiogram and then you should do it after, exactly at the same audiologist and machine. That way you see if treatement worked or not, and that "comprove" by a 3rd party.

Now about me.

It´s dificult for me to give an extimate value of how better am I. The reason is simple, I had in one ear only and now i have it in the two ears.
Concerning my right ear, wich is the one started in December 2013 and i start LLLT in June 2014, I can say now that I have days where I only notice in the morning and in the afternoon. As I said I have two sounds, one is a SSSSSSHHHHH sound, and then the pure tone. The SSSHHHH sound I consider it the regeneration sound( Hansi agres with me) and when that sound ends I change to a pure tone sound, wich is low now. Some times it take weeks other time is just a few days. My pure sound is getthing thinner, so it prove is moving to the high frequencies.
I putting here a conversation with Hansi. Since he was and still is a music, those change he could notice them.

----------------------------
Hello Mr Cross My Name is Fernando, I´m from Portugal. As you i`m a T sufferer. Doing LLLT ince June last year, started at Dr Wilden and went to Anne for two treatments already. Fellin better, but I know still a long way to go. As you describe you your blog, your main problem was(still is I think but much less) on the high frequencies. I do have a lost on the 10, 12 and 16Mhz up too 70 db. On 8 Mhz is on 10, so there is no problem. Mostly i´m writing toy say that you are a big inspiration to me and help on those bad moments. I want to ask well if how long and if still it is, that you had the SHSSSS sound ( like the wrinstling leafs) as you say and the pure tone sound. I already had two day without T ( just noticed when I wake up) and during the rest of the day only 3/4 times i noticed. Since i restarted to laser right after that day, the T is being up and down as usual. But what really get´s me confused, is why sometime is a pure Tone all day, and most of the time is low, and other days is the s SHSSSS sound. This did happen to you as well? Of corse it happens the same to me as did happen to you, after 3 months of the treatments is when you fell the results. All the best AN best regards My problem was due an infection.

08/16/2015 9:00PM
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Yes. It happened to me to. It's is often a new area that starts to improve, It starts with a clear tone and after awhile it becomes more fuzzy and then a sshhh. If you have some testtones in different frequencies to compare with you would notice that the clear tone often is a little bit more high frequent that it was before. It then becomes more an more high frequent until it some day might disappear or be myuuch more quiet. Sometime sit is the same tone as before wghen they didn't succed to heal correctly. But also ythen it is mopst of the times a little bit less loued every time. I had such a tone at 8 kHz that camne back for several years, but everytime it was a liitlöe less loud and after2-3 years when I heard it was almost gone. I don't know ehen it disappeared but I havent heard it in a couple of years now.
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The T in my left ear is a more high frequente sound, so is more dificult for me to notice the diference between the SSSHHH sound and the pure tone. But as the T in my right ear , i have days whee i do not notice almost all day.

So is a big mess for me to say how much better I ´m. A perfect day is when the two T are way low all day ( where i notice them in a quite place) , but that is rare to happen, but they are happening more frequently than in the past.
Just today I wake up and T was really low in my right ear, and nothing on the left ear. Stayed like that during most part of the day, around 3 PM had a spike in my right ear, after that i did NOT notice it for a wille, and around 7 PM start to have a high pitch in the left ear that last for 2 hours, and now nothing again.
So I can say now is a roller coast, with very good days and some not so good.
In December I had 5 days where T was high all day, I did made 2 hours a day of LLLT in each ear, and then it start to low to the point whee i´m now.

I t´s been a wille I promised ATEOS it´s time to make an audiogram, and I keep posting the date to make it. Cause everytime I intend to do it i think to wait a little more for the ear to get better. But I start to feel the time is coming.

Unfornatly I have to say that LLLT does not work for everybody, each person reacts to the treatment diferenttly. Only trying it you can say if it works or not. And even if you make it only once, it does not make any effect and maybe only on a second time later it can work. But no treatment in the world is the same for everybody, so it would not be LLLT diferent from any other.

Fernando
 
Dont want to be a downer but you could just as well be describing changes in T with no LLLT at all.
I could write something very similar and I have not done any LLLT.

Some good days , some bad ...started in one ear , moved to both , went from pure tone to shhh...yes indeed , pretty much I can tell the same story.
 
Dont want to be a downer but you could just as well be describing changes in T with no LLLT at all.
I could write something very similar and I have not done any LLLT.

Some good days , some bad ...started in one ear , moved to both , went from pure tone to shhh...yes indeed , pretty much I can tell the same story.

You can tell any story you want, But I´m better then I was 2 year ago, that is for sure. The rest is up to anyone to make there decisions. I did mine and don´t regret at all of what I did. Actualy I´m happy I did it. Only an audigrame can prove TO ME and to all of you if LLLT did work or not in my case.
 
Hi all,
I am new to this forum and I would like to share my recent experience with LLLT and Dr Wilden.

First a little about my condition:
I am a male 27 years old. In november 2014 I started having some spikes of high-pitch tinnitus that quickly fade away in my left ear. The frequency of these spikes increased day by day, from once a day to several times a day for about 2 month.
In January 2015 I woke up one day with a strong hyperacusis in my right ear. Any high-pitch noise like the switching of a light sitwch or touch of a plastic bag made it really painful for my right ear. The hyperacusis lasted for 1-2 days and disappeared. Then it came back one week later. Same thing it disappeared after a couple of days.
Then at the end of January 2015 I woke up one morning feeling that I had clearly lost some hearing on the right ear. I performed an audiogram with my handphone and I saw I lost around 30dB on the low frequencies on the right ear (125-250 Hz). I went to the hospital, they prescribed me with oral corticosteroids (60mg) and I felt totally normal after about 15 hours. But unfortunately the same hearing loss occured 2 weeks later one morning, just like first time.
I took corticosteroids again and problem resolved... This cycle repeated itself for 3 month and the frequency of hearing losses became more and more frequent. Because I knew corticosteroids were not good for me I tried not taking them. But by not taking then the hearing loss actually became deeper and deeper and after 10 days I woke up one night at 4 am with violent vertigo and vomiting etc. I knew at that moment that it was Meniere's disease (tumor had been ruled about with MRI). That time was very very stressful because I saw that I was going to lose control of my life, lose my job etc.

I tried many alternatives like low sodiun diet, The John of Ohio Meniere's Regimen, sleeping with a higher position at night, Chinese medicine and acupuncture, etc. None of them changed anything, my crises kept getting more and more frequent and violent.

That's when I discovered LLLT and Dr. Wilden by widening my searches on the Internet. I contacted Dr Wilden sending him my latest audiogram and he replied to me 1 or 2 days later saying that I was a very good candidate for his Home Therapy as I had relatively mild hearing loss on the low frequencies, was still young, and relatively early in the disease. His diagnosis was "inner ear exhaustion". He told me I should be healed within 3 months. So I bought his home lux spa device for 2600 euros.

As soon as I received the device I started using it, both ears twice 40 min each day. After first treatment I saw I already had clearly improved my hearing on low frequencies, but I still had a dip on my right ear. After 2 days of treatment I had a very strong tinnitus on my right ear, very unsettling... and I started witnessing my hearing on my right ear coming back slowly.. hearing better every minute. My ear felt very very sensitive for a few days but my hearing was fully back to normal. I was still expecting my hearing to drop one night when I wake up but 7 months after recovery it still hasn't dropped. No vertigo attack, no hyperacusis. I still have tinnitus on my right ear at stressful times or after exposing myself to noise. I get the impression that the tinnitus frequency has shifted to higher and higher frequencies.
Now I continue the therapy with his laser but I am only using it about twice a week for 30 min.
Dr Wilden has been very helpful throughout my therapy reassuring me when changes occured and letting me know how I should adapt my therapy. He has been by far the most helpful health professional I have consulted for this ear issue. I had consulted 4 ENTs before him, including a very recognized one, but none of them were of any help (they were all telling me there was nothing I could do and that if it kept worsening I may need surgery or destruction of my ear...)

I hope this will help.
 
As expected I already receive negative comments about my feedback. I will not try to convince you that my experience is real because there is nothing I can do to prove it to you (not even sending a picture of my laser which would only prove I have it).
For any sufferer reading my post that may recognize themselves in my condition, please feel free to send me a PM if you want to discuss it.
 

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