Retigabine (Trobalt, Potiga) — General Discussion

[linearb]

Honestly, I wouldn't be that concerned about that.
Let's say, for argument's sake, that the drug wears off, say, after 2 weeks (I'm just throwing random numbers around here, obviously).
Tinnitus would come back to it's baseline.

I don't think we have nearly enough information to assume this is necessarily the case; tinnitus is a complex phenomenon which has many different underlaying causes. Given that K+ channels seem to be pretty intimately connected to it, and given that plenty of drugs can create long-term or even permanent changes in physiology and receptor function, I think it's certainly possible that someone could take Retigabine for a period of time, come off of it, and find that their tinnitus is different or worse than it was before they took it. I'm not saying this is likely, I don't have enough information to make that judgement, but neither does anyone else. Until we have a well controlled, large sample size, longitudinal study to put that fear to rest, it's an unknown.

I believe that the biggest anxiety factor for people with tinnitus is the fact that there is no proven treatment that would alleviate their symptoms, even temporarily....
It would be a benzo-like treatment with the added benefit of lowering the T.

Well, we're all different! For me, benzos literally erase my tinnitus. I don't mean "they make me less anxious and I stop caring about my tinnitus", I mean, "valium makes it so that I'm barely able to be aware of my tinnitus if I'm consciously trying to hear it with my ears plugged in a quiet room". That doesn't do a whole lot to help me at this point, believing as I do that long-term benzo use can potentially lead to problems that make tinnitus like tiny in comparison (and given that I can't take a single dose of valium and achieve this effect... for the tinnitus to go away I need to take 5-10mg a day for a period of about 10 days, which is toeing the line as far as getting hooked on it, because I have a history of benzo dependence).

Note that I may be in an unusual situation as regards my response to valium, because overall my hearing is excellent, and my tinnitus has at least as much to do with my history of anxiety and benzo use as it has to do with hearing issues or TMJ.

edit: I'm sorry if this sounds argumentative. I don't think you're wrong or that I'm right, I just think that we have had different experiences and have different opinions as a result. I tend to come on strong about things I'm passionate on.

 

[Christian78]

I probably will try but I want to wait and keep an eye on @Mpt and see what happens when he tapers off the drug, I am a bit weary tho so I'll play the wait and see game.

Rich

Is Mpt tappering off?

 

[SoulStation]

I don't think we have nearly enough information to assume this is necessarily the case; tinnitus is a complex phenomenon which has many different underlaying causes. Given that K+ channels seem to be pretty intimately connected to it, and given that plenty of drugs can create long-term or even permanent changes in physiology and receptor function, I think it's certainly possible that someone could take Retigabine for a period of time, come off of it, and find that their tinnitus is different or worse than it was before they took it. I'm not saying this is likely, I don't have enough information to make that judgement, but neither does anyone else. Until we have a well controlled, large sample size, longitudinal study to put that fear to rest, it's an unknown.



Well, we're all different! For me, benzos literally erase my tinnitus. I don't mean "they make me less anxious and I stop caring about my tinnitus", I mean, "valium makes it so that I'm barely able to be aware of my tinnitus if I'm consciously trying to hear it with my ears plugged in a quiet room". That doesn't do a whole lot to help me at this point, believing as I do that long-term benzo use can potentially lead to problems that make tinnitus like tiny in comparison (and given that I can't take a single dose of valium and achieve this effect... for the tinnitus to go away I need to take 5-10mg a day for a period of about 10 days, which is toeing the line as far as getting hooked on it, because I have a history of benzo dependence).

Note that I may be in an unusual situation as regards my response to valium, because overall my hearing is excellent, and my tinnitus has at least as much to do with my history of anxiety and benzo use as it has to do with hearing issues or TMJ.

edit: I'm sorry if this sounds argumentative. I don't think you're wrong or that I'm right, I just think that we have had different experiences and have different opinions as a result. I tend to come on strong about things I'm passionate on.

Ativan daily 2 mg used to make my tinnitus 80-90% lower . But I will tell you it doesn't work like that any more. Just saying ive definitely gained tolerance towards it. Im weening off now. Down to 1.5 mg and its awful. As you already know. Good luck on whatever path you take.
S

 

[linearb]

Ativan daily 2 mg used to make my tinnitus 80-90% lower . But I will tell you it doesn't work like that any more. Just saying ive definitely gained tolerance towards it. Im weening off now. Down to 1.5 mg and its awful. As you already know. Good luck on whatever path you take.
S

Yup, this is one of two main reasons I'm not pursuing benzos at the moment. Though, I was pretty much tinnitus free for most of the 10 years I was on benzos, without needing to bump the dose up. But, I was on Klonopin which has a long half life, so the 2mg/day I was taking ends up adding up to being on a lot of the stuff at all times.

 

[cdog]

HOWEVER, would that mean a damn thing? You would have a treatment, some SOLID means to help you with the tinnitus, if and when you really needed it.

I believe that the biggest anxiety factor for people with tinnitus is the fact that there is no proven treatment that would alleviate their symptoms, even temporarily.
me.

Well, there are things like, say, white-noise generators that mask the tinnitus. So that fits the "alleviate the symptoms temporarily" criteria. But, of course, no one wants to be walking around with a white noise masker in their ear all or most of the time.

On the other hand, if Retigabine is shown effective at reliably eliminating tinnitus (even if only while on the medicine), then this in itself is a major stepping stone. It provides a target to investigate, a mechanism of action to research and study, something to focus on to further improve. In that sense, Retigabine may be only the first of many subsequent refinements to follow. Think of when antibiotics were first discovered ('by accident') - Penicillin pointed the way to many other types of antibiotics.

 

[Grace]

Well, there are things like, say, white-noise generators that mask the tinnitus. So that fits the "alleviate the symptoms temporarily" criteria. But, of course, no one wants to be walking around with a white noise masker in their ear all or most of the time.

On the other hand, if Retigabine is shown effective at reliably eliminating tinnitus (even if only while on the medicine), then this in itself is a major stepping stone. It provides a target to investigate, a mechanism of action to research and study, something to focus on to further improve. In that sense, Retigabine may be only the first of many subsequent refinements to follow. Think of when antibiotics were first discovered ('by accident') - Penicillin pointed the way to many other types of antibiotics.

aut00063 is the more specific drug targetting the kv3 channels which benryu said is the one that we need to target. Reg is just a bonus as i see it but if 25% of the population "would" say bennefit from reg then id guess autifony would bennefit alot more since its so specific. Like others said we have to wait and see.

 

[Johno]

I think it's certainly possible that someone could take Retigabine for a period of time, come off of it, and find that their tinnitus is different or worse than it was before they took it.

This is what Im afraid of.

Viking, was your T worse after you stop taking Trobalt, than before you begin taking it?

 

[cdog]

aut00063 is the more specific drug targetting the kv3 channels which benryu said is the one that we need to target. Reg is just a bonus as i see it but if 25% of the population "would" say bennefit from reg then id guess autifony would bennefit alot more since its so specific. Like others said we have to wait and see.

It could also be that aut00063 will prove in fact prove ineffective, and retigabine will prove effective. That, for instance, would give us a clue that we should be focusing on Kv7 and not Kv3 channels.

But my point is that if even one substance is proven effective for completely (or nearly completely) silencing tinnitus, even temporarily, that should shift research efforts to focus on studying the biological targets of the substance, its mechanism of action, variations and improvements of this mechanism, etc.

 

[undecided]

Well, we're all different! For me, benzos literally erase my tinnitus. I don't mean "they make me less anxious and I stop caring about my tinnitus", I mean, "valium makes it so that I'm barely able to be aware of my tinnitus if I'm consciously trying to hear it with my ears plugged in a quiet room". That doesn't do a whole lot to help me at this point, believing as I do that long-term benzo use can potentially lead to problems that make tinnitus like tiny in comparison (and given that I can't take a single dose of valium and achieve this effect... for the tinnitus to go away I need to take 5-10mg a day for a period of about 10 days, which is toeing the line as far as getting hooked on it, because I have a history of benzo dependence).

You raise an interesting point.
Since valium (like every benzo, it has anticonvulsant properties) erases your tinnitus and you have excellent hearing, maybe you should check yourself out for some sort of atypical partial seizures or some sort of non-pain related migraine.

I really think that lots of people with tinnitus are simply misdiagnosed. And then, they are prescribed tons of useless benzos and ADs (or those completely pointless masking devices) when all they actually require are properly educated, smart and experienced doctors.

I have high hopes for retigabine. Reading through this thread, I am becoming more and more convinced that its ability to inhibit electrical activity in the brain will accurately address lots of undocumented tinnitus triggers. I'm kinda fond of it's 'shotgun' approach, even more that the alternative 'sniper' method (aut00063).

 

[benryu]

Hell yeah, im lookin forward to the autifony results to see if these kv3 channels are effective.. And yeah if the reg proves more effective then they could research it more in depth and find out wth is in the kv7. But for now im focussed on seeing results of autifony woohoo. Fingers crossed.

Kv3.1 was heavily documented as the main channel for T. considering the number of papers confirming it, I doubt Kv7 is a winner.

As I explained earlier Kv7 targeted by retigabine acts on interspike interval, meaning less T. spikes and it can possibly repolarize the action potential for some people. But the sub unit range is too wide with numerous side effects. (so it can work to stabilize T., remove most spikes to keep it at low minimum and decrease it to some extent, but is not specific enough to be viable.

AUT00063 acts directly on the repolarization and is much more precise.

The only thing I could see is that a few papers mention the kv1.1 being also interacting in the equation, we could see some mix but I tend to believe kv3.1 will be enough.

 

[Philip83]

Kv3.1 was heavily documented as the main channel for T. considering the number of papers confirming it, I doubt Kv7 is winner.

As I explained earlier Kv7 targeted by retigabine acts on interspike interval, meaning less T. spikes and it can possibly repolarize the action potential for some people. But the sub unit range is too wide with numerous side effects. (so it can work to stabilize T., remove most spikes to keep it at low minimum and decrease it to some extent, but is not specific enough to be viable.

AUT00063 acts directly on the repolarization and is much more precise.

The only thing I could see is that a few papers mention the kv1.1 being also interacting in the equation, we could see some mix but I tend to believe kv3.1 will be enough.

I'm almost starting to suspect you might be some kind of henchman for Autifony... you're info is just a little bit too good...

Just kidding you're ace.

 

[benryu]

You raise an interesting point.
Since valium (like every benzo, it has anticonvulsant properties) erases your tinnitus and you have excellent hearing, maybe you should check yourself out for some sort of atypical partial seizures or some sort of non-pain related migraine.

I really think that lots of people with tinnitus are simply misdiagnosed. And then, they are prescribed tons of useless benzos and ADs (or those completely pointless masking devices) when all they actually require are properly educated, smart and experienced doctors.

I have high hopes for retigabine. Reading through this thread, I am becoming more and more convinced that its ability to inhibit electrical activity in the brain will accurately address lots of undocumented tinnitus triggers. I'm kinda fond of it's 'shotgun' approach, even more that the alternative 'sniper' method (aut00063).

Sorry to interfer here, but it has nothing to do with partial seizure... Most anti convulsant are sodium blockers, meaning that when you block sodium it gives potassium much more freedom of actions and impact.

This is why some people get lidocain perfusions, it's a major sodium blocker and will likely mute T. (for a short period)

However it's not viable at all...

 

[benryu]

I'm almost starting to suspect you might be some kind of henchman for Autifony... you're info is just a little bit too good...

Just kidding you're ace.

Shit you got me !!! Well they should pay me for promoting their dope

 

[Grace]

Shit you got me !!! Well they should pay me for promoting their dope

I get you... Everyone else is confusing me soo bad!!!! Trying to just focus on what you write no offense to anyone else, everyone has there opinions about all this kv shit lol but like you said your information is documented.

 

[russiancarl]

I'm really curious about all of this and thank you so much for your insight Benryu. You seem to know a lot about the brain and I was looking around to figure out your background and haven't found much other than your initial post. Are you in the medical field or related in some way?

You seem awfully hopeful with potassium regulating drugs. I'm very interested to know why.

I'm worried that not enough research is being put into tinnitus. The auditory system is quite complex and I think everyone has seen many drugs come and go that seemed amazingly promising yet failed to pass muster in clinical trials. But again, I know next to nothing about the brain.

Are the potassium channels truly the key to the auditory system?

I know it's not the same but I can't help but compare tinnitus to other afflictions of the brain such as Alzheimers, Parkinsons, or MS. I'm betting those are much more complex but the point still seems to resonate with me - with all the money funneled to those afflictions they are no closer to fixing any of them.

Even when they know like in MS there is demyelination of the nerves and brain lesions they can't fix it.

That's my fear with T. Yes, I realize they are vastly different systems but they are still not so far apart to ignore.

 

[cdog]

Even when they know like in MS there is demyelination of the nerves and brain lesions they can't fix it.

That's my fear with MS. Yes, I realize they are vastly different systems but they are still not so far apart to ignore.

I don't think it's so much that it's different systems rather than completely different conditions/causes. In case of MS, it seems like it's the immune system attacking cells and creating lesions - so this has a genetic component and a (progressive) damage (lesions) to neurons component. In the case of tinnitus and down regulated Kv channels, it is linked to noise induced damage to the inner ear hair cells. There is no genetic component, and no ongoing damage to brain (spinal ganglion, etc.) neurons. It seems it's just an action potential timing imbalance (burstiness) in some neurons, which can be affected by fiddling with Kv channels, etc. In summary, it seems like it's a much more localized and controllable problem.

 

[russiancarl]

I don't think it's so much that it's different systems rather than completely different conditions/causes. In case of MS, it seems like it's the immune system attacking cells and creating lesions - so this has a genetic component and a (progressive) damage (lesions) to neurons component. In the case of tinnitus and down regulated Kv channels, it is linked to noise induced damage to the inner ear hair cells. There is no genetic component, and no ongoing damage to brain (spinal ganglion, etc.) neurons. It seems it's just an action potential timing imbalance (burstiness) in some neurons, which can be affected by fiddling with Kv channels, etc. In summary, it seems like it's a much more localized and controllable problem.

Yeah, MS was probably the weakest of the comparisons I could make. Even Parkinsons is kind of a leap as that one has a lot to do with neurons dying. I'm just having trouble finding another brain symptom/disease/affliction that can kinda compare.

I guess to me hearing is a pretty complex system. Like your other senses... eyesight, taste, and what not. Do they know how those work in your brain exactly yet and how to shut them on or off? I suspect not. I do suspect they have some idea of how it all works but to me these potassium channels seem more likely to be part of the puzzle and not the entire picture.

That said, I really don't care if they understand it all if they can start to treat it. Like aspirin for pain or heck, if I could wear eyeglasses for my ears I'd be golden too.

 

[dan]

Just tell me @russiancarl , do u know of any other drug/treatment/procedure which proved 99% effective in a tinnitus rat model? -cause that's what AUT did.

Peace

 

[russiancarl]

@dan I don't know of any drug that reduced tinnitus in rats 99% of the time and failed to work on humans. But pretty much every drug that makes it to human trials is shown to be effective in mice/rats and I do know quite a lot of those do fail. I am not saying this is the case with this drug - in fact I desperately hope the opposite is true. I just wish there were more baskets for us to put our eggs into.

 

[benryu]

I'm really curious about all of this and thank you so much for your insight Benryu. You seem to know a lot about the brain and I was looking around to figure out your background and haven't found much other than your initial post. Are you in the medical field or related in some way?

You seem awfully hopeful with potassium regulating drugs. I'm very interested to know why.

I'm worried that not enough research is being put into tinnitus. The auditory system is quite complex and I think everyone has seen many drugs come and go that seemed amazingly promising yet failed to pass muster in clinical trials. But again, I know next to nothing about the brain.

Are the potassium channels truly the key to the auditory system?

I know it's not the same but I can't help but compare tinnitus to other afflictions of the brain such as Alzheimers, Parkinsons, or MS. I'm betting those are much more complex but the point still seems to resonate with me - with all the money funneled to those afflictions they are no closer to fixing any of them.

Even when they know like in MS there is demyelination of the nerves and brain lesions they can't fix it.

That's my fear with T. Yes, I realize they are vastly different systems but they are still not so far apart to ignore.

In a nutshell I have a background in applied economics (lol), I drifted to applied maths and computer science, I was more specialised in behavioral models for virtual worlds but I happened to work a lot on neuroscience. (edit: I was creating computer programs to mimic some regions of the brains, so I have a very granular understanding of how most things work up there)

@cdog is right, you can't do a comparaison between such serious problems and T.

It's like comparing HIV and a little iritation on the penis.

T. is very isolated, more than we though for decades and T. is quite ironically a very minor disfunction. Yet annoying, yet terrible, but clinically speaking it's not a big deal at all.

If you browse my old posts you'll see that I shared couple articles about how the auditory system is proven healthy, how the T. is not spreading, how mechanism of T. is now well understood, and how it's actually more a "car that stalled" than a broken car.

Research is pretty much trying to figure out how to start the car again, we are just trying different keys

So for probably the 1000th time, research is on a very good track, there's the money, there's the result, we just need to give them a little more time so they can finish to devellop a safe and efficient drug for us.

Some trials start this autumn, others are about to finish with excellent early-results. The worst part is behind us, I have no doubt about this.

 

[Telis]

Yeah I don't think I will put all my hopes and dreams into a rat model. I'm not even sure if the scientists can actually 100% confirm these mice have tinnitus to start with....A sound burst and reaction sounds kinda lame to me. As far as I know, this is the only way that they conclude that these rats have been induced with tinnitus (could be wrong here). Plus the fact that they are rats!

Until I see some good numbers on a human test model, I personally find it hard to be very optimistic.

Every theory is fantastic, but how many of these theories fail, and how many work? I don't even know if I would want to know that stat, I would probably be less optimistic.

Hope I'm wrong

 

[benryu]

Yeah I don't th

ink I will put all my hopes and dreams into a rat model. I'm not even sure if the scientists can actually 100% confirm these mice have tinnitus to start with....A sound burst and reaction sounds kinda lame to me. As far as I know, this is the only way that they conclude that these rats have been induced with tinnitus (could be wrong here). Plus the fact that they are rats!

Until I see some good numbers on a human test model, I personally find it hard to be very optimistic.

Every theory is fantastic, but how many of these theories fail, and how many work? I don't even know if I would want to know that stat, I would probably be less optimistic.

Hope I'm wrong

Many people would give anything for having at least a rat model for a cure for cancer, ALS, or HIV...

If we are not positive, who can be ?

The T. mechanism has been figured out, research will just brute force the lock until it opens, and I have no doubt it will be very soon.

 

[russiancarl]

@benryu Thank you for clearing that up for me. I get that T is a very mild condition clinically but what other sort of brain dysfunction would you compare it to? Anything that has been cured or at least treated effectively?

The brain is so complex that I still have a hard time believing that even the hearing/tinnitus part of it can be deciphered and solved in what will be around 10 years. I guess that stems from just seeing all the different routes taken that have gotten us to this point. There still doesn't seem to be a clear consensus on the process of T either.

The majority of what I read does say it is in the brain but there are still some hold outs that think it originates in the cochlea or cilia. I know the latter was a prevalent belief for most of T's history which makes it hard for me to buy into this new model until these Phase II trials are done.

I guess my main issue is not having any other drugs or treatments to be hopeful for. There have to be other avenues to attacking this problem and I'd love to see some of those alternatives advance this far as well. I mean, can the vagus nerve stimulator or the transcranial stimulation therapy work too? Those don't seem to interact with the brain in the same way as this drug does so to me it seems just as likely one of those will work as Autifony.

I do think this will be cured but 3 years seems way too soon.

 

[Telis]

Looks like a pretty good rat model for a cure to cancer....Published in 08...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080628155300.htm

Many people would give anything for having at least a rat model for a cure for cancer, ALS, or HIV...

If we are not positive, who can be ?

The T. mechanism has been figured out, research will just brute force the lock until it opens, and I have no doubt it will be very soon.

is

 

[russiancarl]

@Telis Yeah, that's what worries me. Pretty much every drug that makes it to human trials is shown to be awesome at healing rats or mice. As helpful as it is to know that it works on other animals there are issues with testing on these rodents. For example, there are usually limited sample sizes. How many rats were treated with autifony? I actually don't know.

Some people also criticize the lack of genetic diversity among mice. A lot of them are from the same stock and not representative of the population as a whole. Some batches also have severe in-breeding problems.

That doesn't mean it isn't useful.. it just means to me that I won't get my hopes up until human trials are conducted somewhat successfully.

I guess my hesitation really stems from how much I used to research drugs in the past. Especially for my grandmother who had Alzheimers. I remember being very impressed by a drug by a certain Elan Laboratories circa 2002. Everyone was. It flopped horrendously and gave a significant amount of human patients some sort of meningitis. This was also the company involved in some sort of trading scandal... I want to say with SAC but yeah, he's kind of the go to villain when you think of trading scandals lol. Sorry off topic...

I guess my thing is... if potassium channels are the key then lets see drugs being developed that look at the other kv channels too. Lets throw 10 darts at the board instead of 1 and hope more stick!

 

[dan]

Looks like a pretty good rat model for a cure to cancer....Published in 08...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080628155300.htm

Wow that's sounds awesome, so they found a cure for cancer in mice.
You didn't post whether this study was successfully completed in the humans!
Where is the headline- "100% effective cancer treatment in mice, fails to cure humans.."
Telis if you follow Canadian news?, there was a segment about a new prospective cancer cure involving a non-patentable cheap chemical that costs pennies, that worked 100% in mice and casues zero side effects in humans for other conditions.
It never came to light since the big pharma put the kibosh on it.
Keep in mind tinnitus drugs are highly patentable and will be worth billions.

 

[111]

Lets just look at things objectively and in simple terms hey (how i like it ! )?

We seem to have a medication that is a "new" style in stage development and who knows this might just work. In a few months time the results of the AUT next phase will be released, and if it comes back with great results, we will all be having a different view on these Kv whatever's.

Look at this trobalt stuff, there are people on here who claim to be getting great results from taking it, maybe thats a first sign of proof in itself that this could be the right direction to take, who knows, none of us really really do to be honest do we, we are not involved with the testing / development of these things, we can only read / search and read what they tell us and then all guess and have our own views.

Leave it to the experts i say, and why worry at this stage about potential side affects, EVERY medication can do some sort of damage to anyone taking it, lets just get the testing of this stuff out the way first and see what develops, or else we could all be talking about what harm this could do to us with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever to be fair ( and no i am not insulting anyone )

 

[Telis]

Wow that's sounds awesome, so they found a cure for cancer in mice.
You didn't post whether this study was successfully completed in the humans!
Where is the headline- "100% effective cancer treatment in mice, fails to cure humans.."
Telis if you follow Canadian news?, there was a segment about a new prospective cancer cure involving a non-patentable cheap chemical that costs pennies, that worked 100% in mice and casues zero side effects in humans for other conditions.
It never came to light since the big pharma put the kibosh on it.
Keep in mind tinnitus drugs are highly patentable and will be worth billions.

Wow that's sounds awesome, so they found a cure for cancer in mice.
You didn't post whether this study was successfully completed in the humans!
Where is the headline- "100% effective cancer treatment in mice, fails to cure humans.."
Telis if you follow Canadian news?, there was a segment about a new prospective cancer cure involving a non-patentable cheap chemical that costs pennies, that worked 100% in mice and casues zero side effects in humans for other conditions.
It never came to light since the big pharma put the kibosh on it.
Keep in mind tinnitus drugs are highly patentable and will be worth billions.

Hey Dan,

Not sure of your point here...Are you saying this FDA approved phase 2 study on humans never happened?

 

[111]

Any other Aussies on here who might be waiting to try to use trobalt, the link below tells you each time a new medication has been released to the public and is updated the day it is released, so maybe check from time to time

www.medicines.org.au

 

[RichL]

Is Mpt tappering off?

Yes he did mention a wee while back that he was going to decrease his dosage after a few months!

Yeah I don't think I will put all my hopes and dreams into a rat model. I'm not even sure if the scientists can actually 100% confirm these mice have tinnitus to start with....A sound burst and reaction sounds kinda lame to me. As far as I know, this is the only way that they conclude that these rats have been induced with tinnitus (could be wrong here). Plus the fact that they are rats!

Until I see some good numbers on a human test model, I personally find it hard to be very optimistic.

Every theory is fantastic, but how many of these theories fail, and how many work? I don't even know if I would want to know that stat, I would probably be less optimistic.

Hope I'm wrong

@Telis , They( the scientists behind Autifony) studied and tested those rat models for years, so it's not just thinking or guessing that they had in fact induced Tinnitus in these rats, they are pretty damn 99% sure that they had.
They are professionals that are committing there entire life to science and there experiments are very, very rigorous and thorough, the way you have simplified it is a bit of an insult to these scientists.
If indeed these trials prove fruitless it will be disappointing for us and just as disappointing for them because it will be years of research for naught!

Rich