South Korean Clinic Treatment (Dr. Minbo Shim)

[glynis]

Hi Mentos,
His was due to his operations in his ear ....lots of love glynis

 

[Coleoptere]

Hello everyone,

there was much excitement about the South Korean clinic (http://updatemed.koreafree.co.kr/) and its treatment for hearing impairment and tinnitus in the thread "Inner Ear Hair Cell Regeneration — Maybe We Can Know More".

I decided to analyse the audiograms which are publicy available at the website (http://updatemed.koreafree.co.kr/board/index.html?id=updatemed111&page=1) and I have written down the results of my analysis.
A corresponding PDF is included in this post. You are free to read the analysis and give comments.

I would like to have this thread to aggregate information about the treatment.

My comment about my own analysis is: I would possibly do the treatment but I am worrying unknown long term effects. If I had a good hearing in high frequencies, I would never dare to do this treatment.

Kind Regards,
vaka

Vaka. Excellent investigation! I fully agree with the discussion in you investigation. The scatterplots very well demonstrated the effects on the different frequencies for which the outline was already visible in one of the diagrams in the presentation of the clinic.

 

[vaka]

Vaka. Excellent investigation! I fully agree with the discussion in you investigation. The scatterplots very well demonstrated the effects on the different frequencies for which the outline was already visible in one of the diagrams in the presentation of the clinic.

Hello, i was not aware of the presentation.
May you provide a link to the presentations here?

 

[Coleoptere]

It is a picture in this film http://cmclinics.com/2016/11/ at 1:02.

 

[Brendan H]

My comment about my own analysis is: I would possibly do the treatment but I am worrying unknown long term effects. If I had a good hearing in high frequencies, I would never dare to do this treatment.

What's not clear to me regarding stem cell or gene therapy, is whether or not either approach can treat those with loss in one area; high frequency for example. In other words, would one need to have a certain degree of loss across all frequencies in order to be a candidate for these therapies. Not sure about stem cell therapy, but given the requirements one needed to qualify for the Novartis gene therapy trial (loss across all frequencies), I would think that gene therapy can't target particular areas for re-growth. Maybe there's a risk of "over-growth" if one's low frequency hearing is within normal ranges? If anyone has access to documentation around this particular topic, please share.

 

[RaZaH]

Wow, seems to be quite likely to have an adverse affect on healthy high freq hearing.

 

[Artemis2K]

Strangely, most of the examples that I have seen for people with my range of problems have been very positive. The losses I saw I thought nothing of because of the commom 5 dB margin of error.

 

[lolkas]

Good work @vaka !

This is bad news :/ Do you by chance got in to figuring out why this damages high freq ? I mean if it heals some freq ranges but damages high freq hearing, there should be reason why it does that.

 

[Artemis2K]

Good work @vaka !

This is bad news :/ Do you by chance got in to figuring out why this damages high freq ? I mean if it heals some freq ranges but damages high freq hearing, there should be reason why it does that.

Obviously there needs to be further investigation. The high frequency damage may have something to do with the closeness of the ear? Maybe? Idk lol.

I also think that age is an essential factor in the data. He has previously said that older people have lesser results.

Anyway, I decided to invest in the Laser Therapy thing first before I consider this.

 

[bill 112]

When I contacted him I did get some info as in regards to what it actually does,he said"it regenerates the auditory nerve and cells a bit but also stops further deterioration"

I don't know what to make of that if I'm honest,he did say it helped a lot of T patients and some with mild H.

I'm doing laser therapy in January to see how that goes,I'm still not convinced of this just yet.

 

[Artemis2K]

Wanted to copy and paste this from his website for informative purposes, it seems related.

"
However, one cycle does not completely treat the patient

And it requires consistent treatment.

People in young ages require 3 cycles with several days apart,

Whereas elders require 6 cycles.

Patients are followed up for next few months

That is because as it takes time for an infant to become a grown-up,

It takes time for nerve cell to grow and function.

When necessary, re-treatment is performed after several months.

The outcome may differ depending on individual based on age, period of having hearing loss, severity of hearing loss, former treatment, causes, but most patients showed improvement than before and even felt improvement after one cycle."

 

[Christian78]

Good work @vaka !

This is bad news :/ Do you by chance got in to figuring out why this damages high freq ? I mean if it heals some freq ranges but damages high freq hearing, there should be reason why it does that.

I suppose if they inject in cochlea then place where they are injecting is are of cells for high freq, deep inside cochlea is lower freq...

 

[lolkas]

@Artemis2K well, we all know that younger you are - better for any regenetive treatments. Now, we dont see yet 3 audiograms from separate cycles of same young patient. E.e. year-two history of these 3 cycles for young patient supplied with audiograms so that we could see dynamic of progress.

See, what i am trying to say here is that i am sure it does regenerate, but how efficient it is - unknown. Now, since they are pretty much shooting your own blood in to ear - you want to make sure your blood is at its "best" (no vitamin defficiency, otoxity and etc). In order to have "clean" blood - you gota stay on decent organic plant-based diet for at least 90 days without cheating and better stay on it untill the end of your journey in this world.(not saying dont eat meat, but need to keep good ratio). No one knows how "good" each latients blood were and what diet thay had, and that is very important here.

 

[Artemis2K]

@Artemis2K well, we all know that younger you are - better for any regenetive treatments. Now, we dont see yet 3 audiograms from separate cycles of same young patient. E.e. year-two history of these 3 cycles for young patient supplied with audiograms so that we could see dynamic of progress.

See, what i am trying to say here is that i am sure it does regenerate, but how efficient it is - unknown. Now, since they are pretty much shooting your own blood in to ear - you want to make sure your blood is at its "best" (no vitamin defficiency, otoxity and etc). In order to have "clean" blood - you gota stay on decent organic plant-based diet for at least 90 days without cheating and better stay on it untill the end of your journey in this world.(not saying dont eat meat, but need to keep good ratio). No one knows how "good" each latients blood were and what diet thay had, and that is very important here.

Minbo Shim actually mentioned that very thing in a conversation. Said that my past vitamin D deficiency would theoretically limit my potential. If I reached great level of V-D, I am to wait 3 months. Thankfully I am of normal level now.

 

[Rubenslash]

Thanks a lot for your insights Vaka, very valuable. You work as an academic?

I agree with your opinion that the audiograms are most likely not fake. However, it's hard to be sure about the completeness of the population as he could easily exclude some of the worst audiograms.

Seems worth a try for persons with severe hearing loss as some sort of a last resort. Otherwise I wouldn't do it given the uncertainty about the long term effects and the substances he's using. Definitely encouraging that there is some improvement noted in hearing which could pave the way for better treatments in the future.

 

[lolkas]

Minbo Shim actually mentioned that very thing in a conversation. Said that my past vitamin D deficiency would theoretically limit my potential. If I reached great level of V-D, I am to wait 3 months.

Exactly, but that's not all, there is much more to yoir blood then just vitamin efficiency. You have to get rid of toxic stuff to promote healing. Its like these special dietary things for cancer patients.

 

[Stakovic]

@vaka @RaZaH

I asked him about the safety and number of people treated

Dear stakovic,

I have over 100 cases who are freed from their annoying tinnitus.


There were no comlications.


The cost will be around 6000~8000US dollars depending on your hearing status.

I have to know your hearing status if you really don't have any subtle hearing loss.


Happy new year!!!



Minbo Shim, Director of Cheongmin.

 

[Amber]

@Stakovic

How many have been treated in total including non successes? Without that a success rate can't be calculated

 

[RaZaH]

I have over 100 cases who are freed from their annoying tinnitus.

Wow...that is almost impossible to believe. If it were proven I would definitely go .

I wonder if we can get more concrete info , like what age group, what kind of T etc etc ?

 

[RaZaH]

Hearing loss is not my main problem obviously but I would love to regain some of my lost hearing as a bonus to T treatment. However , my measured loss is at 3-4k and 8k but my own conclusions are that my main hearing loss is above 10-11 k and that is where my wall of hi freq T sits. That is the area that needs healing in my case.

For someone with eeeee T at 3-4 k ,this might help the T itself.

It also raises questions about why the medical community or some research "giants" arent all over this if the guy has treated hundreds of people. Would love to track down a non Korean client or an english speaking Korean...or something , to ask questions.

 

[Artemis2K]

I wonder if a perfect positive outcome really is an unrealistic expectation in general. Injecting stuff in the ear, whatever it may be, to attempt regeneration perhaps may always bring some form of consequence. Just about every scientist working on hearing loss probably do not consider those with slight to mild hearing loss as candidates, and I say this from previous observations.

This is why I find Dr. Minbo Shim's results impressive regardless whether or not there are some negative outcomes. I'm 22 with aggrevating tinnitus and slight hearing loss, and his examples of people around my age and similar status have been positive from what I have seen, therefore he is still a consideration after I try Wilden's therapy.

I have noticed Dr. Minbo Shim say that a treatment could take months for a full effect. I am curious on whether or not the negatives go away over time. I also wonder how much effect puncturing the eardrum can have on hearing, even if it is a small opening.

Anyway, I am happy that we are discussing a potential treatment's effectiveness, and it looks like he truly is the real deal. I still absolutely find his lack of major marketing strange, but I guess it makes sense if he doesn't want to be overwhelmed with patients and wants to do the treatments himself.

 

[RaZaH]

Well, if he has "cured" 1oo´s of people , we effectively have a cure for T .
That in itself is highly unlikely and suspect.

 

[RaZaH]

after I try Wilden's therapy.

When are you going to Wilden? Considering that myself.
In fact I might go on a "T Pilgrimage" dr.wilden and Korea...need a bit more info though.

 

[Artemis2K]

Well, if he has "cured" 1oo´s of people , we effectively have a cure for T .
That in itself is highly unlikely and suspect.

South Korea does not put up with scam artists. At all. I don't think Minbo Shim would dare attempt being the next Hwang Woo-suk. Though Shim is not super public, he is public enough to where he would easily get into massive amounts of trouble if he was BS. He has a lot of digital footprints.

Those are the reasons why I am leaning on trusting him.

As for Wilden: When I have the money.

 

[RaZaH]

I see what you are saying , just super ultra sceptical at this point.
Like I said if he has cured people of T , well, that is the holy grail and what we are all waiting for,
I wonder why he does not put more emphasis into the T aspect of his work?
As in ,the info on his site does not go into that side of things too much.

Not that i doubt it but why do you say that South K does not put up with scam artists?
Hwang Woo-suk is still doing research and employed in his field

 

[Artemis2K]

I see what you are saying , just super ultra sceptical at this point.
Like I said if he has cured people of T , well, that is the holy grail and what we are all waiting for,
I wonder why he does not put more emphasis into the T aspect of his work?
As in ,the info on his site does not go into that side of things too much.

Not that i doubt it but why do you say that South K does not put up with scam artists?
Hwang Woo-suk is still doing research and employed in his field

Yes, but his reputation was largely destroyed, and he had a lot of problems over time. He was an international joke. He was at one point charged for a long prison sentence, even though he was not experimenting on humans. What he was doing was also a little more difficult to prove BS than what Minbo Shim is doing. With Minbo Shim, a few future audiograms from other people would eventually get him caught. Eventually a large group would call him out, and it would take little to no time for his downfall. Also, after a year, it took people around the world to call Woo-suk out. It would take even less time for Minbo Shim to receive negative attention, as his practice is human involved.

According to what I have read, Minbo Shim has been working with his treatment for a decent amount of time.

 

[RaZaH]

I wonder how we can corroborate these claims though?
I would not mind taking a vacation in Korea and get fixed up

 

[vaka]

Strangely, most of the examples that I have seen for people with my range of problems have been very positive. The losses I saw I thought nothing of because of the commom 5 dB margin of error.

When you look through all pictures, you can see many examples where people had around 50db to 70db at 8khz before the treatment and NRM afterwards. Also the were some cases where people hat around 30db at 6khz or 8khz and 50db afterwards.

If you want, i can send you a copy of the data. Send a pm, then.

 

[vaka]

I wonder if a perfect positive outcome really is an unrealistic expectation in general. Injecting stuff in the ear, whatever it may be, to attempt regeneration perhaps may always bring some form of consequence.

I think, this is the real question.

 

[vaka]

I wonder how we can corroborate these claims though?
I would not mind taking a vacation in Korea and get fixed up

I would love to see someone having this treatment done while making his audiograms in his home country. Does anyone consider this treatment with some seriousness?