South Korean Clinic Treatment (Dr. Minbo Shim)

[Artemis2K]

At least we have something to debate about that has more accepted scientific background than shooting lasers in the ear... lol. I am more skeptical on that then this lol.

 

[GregCA]

At least we have something to debate about that has more accepted scientific background than shooting lasers in the ear... lol. I am more skeptical on that then this lol.

Don't be so quick to dismiss LLLT. There is a scientific background behind it, as there are studies specifically covering its use in cochlear tinnitus.

Unfortunately for cochlear tinnitus, LLLT alone doesn't seem to be very efficient. However, when paired with other techniques, such as rTMS, it seems reasonably useful. And before anyone says it's probably rTMS that is useful, read the study, and you will find out that it's the combination of rTMS and LLLT that seems to help, whereas either one used in isolation doesn't.

That tells me there is something that LLLT is accomplishing that can be helpful, and it behooves us to understand it better.
Also note that LLLT as a general name doesn't cover all its variants. Finding the proper protocol (wavelength, power, distance, focus, period, etc) is key to unlocking its usefulness, and we won't make progress until we try things, even if most of them don't work.

 

[Reinier]

Some of us need improvement now, even if it's not a lot.

I totally agree.
But if it is not available we can only try to understand what researchers are up against.
We can support (donate) research. Try to raise awareness and...wait.
Lets start with hyperacusis

 

[Foncky]

Experimental stem cells treatments are available so we can try that at least... Even if it's not supposed to work at all, some people like Ateos said it was one of their best decisions.

I don't know what to think, I'll try to understand it better during the next few months and I'll take a decision in 2017. If I get a little relief and the real official treatment comes in ten years, then it's all good.

Also, don't forget we can try to participate to clinical trials focused on regeneration. Audion, Frequency TX and many companies are going faster and faster.

As for the people on this thread who are always pessimistic : maybe begin to do something by becoming a benefactor for Tinnitus Talk. Little actions...

@lolkas the Korean guy makes a clear difference between growth factors and stem cells. He says he's not sure stem cells are useful at all when he uses them.

 

[VRZ78]

Don't be so quick to dismiss LLLT. There is a scientific background behind it, as there are studies specifically covering its use in cochlear tinnitus.

Unfortunately for cochlear tinnitus, LLLT alone doesn't seem to be very efficient. However, when paired with other techniques, such as rTMS, it seems reasonably useful. And before anyone says it's probably rTMS that is useful, read the study, and you will find out that it's the combination of rTMS and LLLT that seems to help, whereas either one used in isolation doesn't.

That tells me there is something that LLLT is accomplishing that can be helpful, and it behooves us to understand it better.
Also note that LLLT as a general name doesn't cover all its variants. Finding the proper protocol (wavelength, power, distance, focus, period, etc) is key to unlocking its usefulness, and we won't make progress until we try things, even if most of them don't work.

Yes LLLT and rTMS seems to work :

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=19821704

I've read the entire people and it sells dream with good improvement in the H. It sells dream...

 

[GregCA]

I've read the entire people and it sells dream with good improvement in the H. It sells dream...

I don't know what you mean there.

 

[lolkas]

@Foncky i don`t think they will tell us exactly what their formula is, but it makes sense to have to inject mix of both, maybe that is key here. Anyways, us guessing that wont do much. Dr. Shim certainly figured something out during his research and that does seem to work.

Lets wait and see on what is going to happen. When are you considering going there ? I can PM you on this if you want.

 

[VRZ78]

I don't know what you mean there.

The patients pain threshold increased by a considerable number of dB. I don't know if I can post the number since they are not public in the abstract

 

[Artemis2K]

I am starting to believe in Shim's claims. I fear he is lying, but I am skeptical of that now because if he did, he really backed himself into a corner and could become the next Hwang Woo-suk (look him up). I don't think Shim is lying at all though. He has exposed himself too much with such a large claim, so if he did lie he is screwed.

 

[Coleoptere]

The patients pain threshold increased by a considerable number of dB. I don't know if I can post the number since they are not public in the abstract

I have totally lost you. Do you mean hearing threshold? And what number are you refering to? A personal e-mail from Dr. Shim Minbo?

 

[VRZ78]

I have totally lost you. Do you mean hearing threshold? And what number are you refering to? A personal e-mail from Dr. Shim Minbo?

I was answering to GregCA about the sLLLT study for H. A bit off topic sorry

 

[Christian78]

Don't be so quick to dismiss LLLT. There is a scientific background behind it, as there are studies specifically covering its use in cochlear tinnitus.

Unfortunately for cochlear tinnitus, LLLT alone doesn't seem to be very efficient. However, when paired with other techniques, such as rTMS, it seems reasonably useful. And before anyone says it's probably rTMS that is useful, read the study, and you will find out that it's the combination of rTMS and LLLT that seems to help, whereas either one used in isolation doesn't.

That tells me there is something that LLLT is accomplishing that can be helpful, and it behooves us to understand it better.
Also note that LLLT as a general name doesn't cover all its variants. Finding the proper protocol (wavelength, power, distance, focus, period, etc) is key to unlocking its usefulness, and we won't make progress until we try things, even if most of them don't work.

I have a friend in Germany @snow86 whose life is ruined after rTMS. I tried rTMS and i go to nothing. I did LLLT but Norwegian doctor said she might help with hyperacusis. All doctors whom i went, from former president of neurologist in Europe to Swedish doctor in Karolinska instituet leading Sweish tinnitus, project and German Doctor leading European tinnitus project and Belgian doctor at clinic Brai2n where you get rTMS said light is too low to penetrate the cochlea or just they dont believe in LLLT as they did not get positive feedback from patients...

 

[VRZ78]

@Christian78 What did rMTS do to your friend ?
RTMS is told to have no permanent side effects

 

[HomeoHebbian]

On the site of this clinic results and many audiograms are shown with improvements. Some small and insignificant but many times improvement of 20 to 30 Db are claimed. What do you make of it? Is it all scam? Placebo is not enough I should to explain it away.

I don't believe anything until it has at least been vetted through anonymous peer review. If it is a really surprising finding like this, I would remain skeptical until it had been replicated by another independent group. At that point, I would start taking it seriously. There are literally hundreds of examples of fantastic "cures" that end up being based on erroneous or fraudulent findings. Yes, even an audiogram can be subject to error/fraud. In fact, it should be viewed with extra caution because it is a subjective report from the patient. A purely objective readout (like DPOAE or ABR threshold) would be more convincing. But again, any "evidence" presumes that this person is acting with the skepticism, ethics and integrity of a real biomedical researcher.

 

[HomeoHebbian]

I have read that in a few studies the importance of myelin sheath on haircells was significant to hearing, and made a large difference. So, possibly, that could explain this. The Korean clinic could just be giving weakened haircells new life. That is, if everything they claim is legitimate.

There is no myelin sheath on hair cells. Myelin is a fatty wrapping that insulates nerve fibers so that the electrical signals can be propagated more rapidly and reliably. In the peripheral nervous system (e.g., the inner ear), myelin comes from Schwann cells. Schwann cells wrap the neurite extensions of spiral ganglion neurons, which receive inputs from the (mostly inner) hair cells and transmit the signal to the cochlear nucleus in the brainstem. So, no, that could not explain this.

 

[HomeoHebbian]

That is not what we want to hear (-;
But I am glad that you take the effort to post this on this forum. What I understand is that you are very knowledgeable.
It is so easy to get get caught up in a frenzy of hope.
I just hope that there is room for relief between where we are no and an actual cure for inner ear hair cell/nerve damage.
Also @Aaron123 an excellent post. I downloaded the document you suggested.
Read, read, read...that is all I can do at the moment.
In a few years time I will be able to better understand the different research. Especially the ones that are written for the layman (-;
I hope in the meantime natural adaptation of my brain will make this condition more bearable.
Patience..........

There are many reasons to be hopeful about new developments in hearing therapies. The basic science done (mostly) in university laboratories has finally generated some findings that have convinced Biotech to start investing and spending. I think we will have some exciting new therapies in 5-10 years. But I don't think those therapies will be helpful for chronic sensorineural hearing loss.

The lowest hanging fruit will be hearing protection, gene therapies for congenital deafness that are based on well-known mutations and, possibly, therapies for acute hearing loss (e.g., within 24 hours after standing too close to an IED). I could imagine those therapies coming online in 5-10 years.

The problem that we all have (presumably) is chronic sensorineural hearing loss related to aging and/or noise exposure and/or ototoxic drugs and/or...this is a much harder problem that reflects a loss of function and degeneration across many different cell types within the inner ear. There is no branch of biomedical science that is remotely close to being able to repair system-wide failure of this nature, particularly in a delicate and inaccessible organ like the inner ear. The best we can do for mild/moderate chronic sensorineural loss are amplification devices (e.g., hearing aids, which are about to get better now that the audiology mafia will be unable to continue thwarting innovation) and cochlear implants for profound loss.

While I am deeply skeptical about repairing the inner ear of someone with chronic, widespread sensorineural failures, I am GENUINELY OPTIMISTIC that we can eliminate (or at least greatly attenuate) tinnitus. That is an easier problem to solve. Sure, tinnitus could theoretically be solved by a really superb inner ear therapy but there are far easier ways. Since this thread is about inner ear regeneration, I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Rings-a-Bell]

(e.g., hearing aids, which are about to get better now that the audiology mafia will be unable to continue thwarting innovation)

Why are hearing aids about to get better and why are they bad now? Who is this mafia?... aren't hearing aids produced by a wide variety of companies? Or is there a cartel of some sort?

 

[Reinier]

therapies for acute hearing loss (e.g., within 24 hours after standing too close to an IED).

I often thought about that. What will happen when something is available?
I keep reading that GPs advice to wait and see if the temporary noise induced hearing loss will "clear" up on its own.
When something will be available in future that is able to arrest the ongoing damaging processes in the inner ear after noise, doctors need to be very aware and not advise to wait.
But this is not for this thread.
I hope that the first treatments will accelerate follow up research.

 

[GregCA]

hearing aids, which are about to get better now that the audiology mafia will be unable to continue thwarting innovation

What changed?

 

[lolkas]

The best we can do for mild/moderate chronic sensorineural loss are amplification devices (e.g., hearing aids, which are about to get better now that the audiology mafia will be unable to continue thwarting innovation) and cochlear implants for profound loss.

true, but hearing aids (except cochlear implant) are basically going to worsen what patient has now. Having mini megaphone in your ear that will amplify everything and will kill what is left to "ground zero" stage - not best and won`t ever be any satisfactory to any patient. I have researched this briefly and like 90% of users if these devices are not happy with them and make things worse.

Think is with this "mafia" stuff is that we are not in 90s anymore, we have internet and information spreads with "speed of light". People around the globe are not as stupid and "easy believers" as they used to. Current treatments are not working and no one will use these hearing devices soon.

Business - this is what drives medicine. It is estimated to be at least 20+ bil. dollars marked that is EMPTY. This is why all of these new biotech companies sweating their ass off, literally.

Lets be real here, there is not a lot of people out there who will sacrifice their time/effort on research/test/development of new therapies to not only get rid of Tinnitus but cure hearing issues in general just for nothing or having a good heart, is all about money. We are in good spot here - market is huge and profits are extremely high, its in matter of time now for them to get this out.

You are saying prevention - yes and that will be big thing too, imagine pill that you take before going to concert or whatever that will preserve your hearing and maybe even act as "support" of healthy state of hearing in general ? However, that is "up there". What business focuses is what they can get money off on 100% and that is from people that have issue with hearing. I think having cure for moderate hearing loss in 5 or 10 years is more than real, not just a dream. Right now i think if you are lucky - some of current treatments might be a cure for you, but that is kinda 50/50 thing.

I am not a blind "optimist" but rather realist and come off info that i absorb.

 

[wags]

Lets be real here, there is not a lot of people out there who will sacrifice their time/effort on research/test/development of new therapies to not only get rid of Tinnitus but cure hearing issues in general just for nothing or having a good heart, is all about money. We are in good spot here - market is huge and profits are extremely high, its in matter of time now for them to get this out.

I have to agree here. We are seeing lots of traction in the private sector around hearing loss restoration/prevention. Even if it is slow moving, investors don't just throw 10s of millions of dollars at R&D pet projects.

 

[tomytl]

Why are hearing aids about to get better and why are they bad now? Who is this mafia?... aren't hearing aids produced by a wide variety of companies? Or is there a cartel of some sort?

Hearing Aid companies won't have any relevant infuence against a pharma company able to enhance hearing.
The first pharma with a clinical relevant treatment for hearing loss would generate a way more money than the hearing aid manufacturers ..
I think Pfizer or Novartis wouldn't care about GN Resound or Phonak, it's far another dimension the pharma business.

 

[tomytl]

Things go slow in research, that's the reality,yes.... but the last 10 years brought an amazing advance in understanding about hearing disorders.
And we are in the transition of a new class of medicine, regenerative medicine.

Anyway, I guess 2017 will be interesting.
From what I read, Audion ist starting some clinical trials, Hough Ear aswell and Novartis will finish their Atoh1 trial and collect the data....
Ofcourse, it's likely that everything will delay, but maybe we see some good progress....

 

[Reinier]

Perhaps we can look at it from another angle.
How long are investors willing to wait for a return in general?
How many years is regarded as a long term investment in finance?
What do research companies tell investors when to expect a return?
Is 10 plus years long term investment and unusual?
Investors want an regular update on progress and stop investing if there is lack of progress.
Investors want to minimise risk and I assume they make use of experts to advise them.
Maybe we can know more if we look at it that way

 

[spingee]

Having mini megaphone in your ear that will amplify everything and will kill what is left to "ground zero"

Wrong, read something about compression in HAs, which is nowdays even smart dynamic

 

[Foncky]

While I am deeply skeptical about repairing the inner ear of someone with chronic, widespread sensorineural failures, I am GENUINELY OPTIMISTIC that we can eliminate (or at least greatly attenuate) tinnitus. That is an easier problem to solve. Sure, tinnitus could theoretically be solved by a really superb inner ear therapy but there are far easier ways. Since this thread is about inner ear regeneration, I'll just leave it at that.

You don't think chronic SHL will be cured one day ? That's widely pessimistic and necessarily wrong. You'd have to be more specific to make claims like that.

About tinnitus, as this board is focused on the very issue, that would be great if you could elaborate somewhere. What are those "easier ways" ? You can't write that here and "leave it at that".

 

[Mricha37]

Again, I'll put in a few hundred bucks for the person that wants to go try a stem cell treatment clinic. I would but mine isn't quite bad enough to be a lab rat, but then again they are being healed by scientist whilst we suffer. LOL.

In a few years mine will be bad enough I'll probably go get the treatment, it's not a money issue for me thankfully.

 

[Foncky]

Mine is bad enough but there's always worse. If it does nothing, I'll be ok, good try. If I loose what I have left... Ouch.

 

[HomeoHebbian]

What changed?

Keep an eye on this bill - http://hearinghealthmatters.org/hea...en-grassley-hearing-aid-affordable-bill-1107/

The hardware in hearing aids is very sophisticated. In my view, the thinking about processing algorithms is very narrow-minded and essentially tailored to audiologists. Audiology has kept a stranglehold on the assistive device industry but it looks like it might finally be wrestled out of their grip. This will open the door to software apps that can communicate with assertive devices via bluetooth and some new approaches to individual setting that are controlled by the end-user via smartphones etc. "Hearing aids" will still be dispensed and fit but professionals but a new class of assistive device will be opened up to market forces and may help people with more mild hearing loss and/or tinnitus. I think this will be to the benefit of the end-user.

 

[HomeoHebbian]

You don't think chronic SHL will be cured one day ? That's widely pessimistic and necessarily wrong. You'd have to be more specific to make claims like that.

About tinnitus, as this board is focused on the very issue, that would be great if you could elaborate somewhere. What are those "easier ways" ? You can't write that here and "leave it at that".

I was addressing the claim that it would be cured in 5-10 years.