South Korean Clinic Treatment (Dr. Minbo Shim)

[vaka]

Hello everyone,

there was much excitement about the South Korean clinic (http://updatemed.koreafree.co.kr/) and its treatment for hearing impairment and tinnitus in the thread "Inner Ear Hair Cell Regeneration — Maybe We Can Know More". (Moderator Note: the posts concerning the clinic / Dr. Minbo Shim have been brought over into this new thread you're now reading).

I decided to analyse the audiograms which are publicy available at the website (http://updatemed.koreafree.co.kr/board/index.html?id=updatemed111&page=1) and I have written down the results of my analysis.
A corresponding PDF is included in this post. You are free to read the analysis and give comments.

I would like to have this thread to aggregate information about the treatment.

My comment about my own analysis is: I would possibly do the treatment but I am worrying unknown long term effects. If I had a good hearing in high frequencies, I would never dare to do this treatment.

Kind Regards,
vaka

 

[Rob111]

I recently came across the site linked below and had not seen it before. Not sure if there is anything to
this but I'll post it in case anyone wants to research the treatment:

http://cmclinics.com/

 

[Reinier]

cmclinics.com/2016/11/
I have not seen this one before.
Bold statements in the video clip.

 

[spingee]

cmclinics.com/2016/11/
I have not seen this one before.
Bold statements in the video clip.

Fake but you can prove me wrong

 

[Reinier]

Fake but you can prove me wrong

I agree.
When it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
Perhaps in 5-10 years

 

[Coleoptere]

Looking at Dr, Minbo Shim's profile in the film at 0:16 I expect that they use stem cells. My understanding is that they inject stem cells into the inner ear. That is one of the promising techniques for recovering hearing loss.

 

[VRZ78]

Yeah and his collaboration with the University of Standford seems true :

https://hellerlab.stanford.edu/2014/04/lab-meeting-with-good-food/

Minbo is visiting to establish future collaboration with his home institution where he plans to initiate a research group focused on basic and translational inner ear regenerative studies. We are looking forward to future interactions!

Too bad there isn't enough details on his website. I'm sure we could find some patient experience on Korean forums, but good luck with searching the web in Korean

 

[VRZ78]

The video is cheap though

 

[VRZ78]

Looking at Dr, Minbo Shim's profile in the film at 0:16 I expect that they use stem cells. My understanding is that they inject stem cells into the inner ear. That is one of the promising techniques for recovering hearing loss.

I emailed the clinic and that's what they replied :
Its composed of some stem cells and growth factors extracted in your own blood and bone marrow.



The cost of treatment is 6,000 US dollars.

So maybe a combinaison of stem cells and NT3

 

[Vinnitus]

I emailed the clinic and that's what they replied :
Its composed of some stem cells and growth factors extracted in your own blood and bone marrow.

The cost of treatment is 6,000 US dollars.

So maybe a combinaison of stem cells and NT3

If this were true, it would be world news, don't you think? I would absolutely love to be proven wrong, but both the website and the video material flare my skepticism.

 

[VRZ78]

Yeah I know but I don't think it is more a fake than the others stem cells clinics or LLLT clinics. Plus they appeared on Korean TV and they opened this year.
I don't know I'm just hopeful

Injecting steam cell in the ear is basically what Rivolta and the Japanese guy are doing. They just take time to find the right stem cell and ensure safety whereas those guys like in Korea just inject them and that's all.

 

[Vinnitus]

Yeah I know but I don't think it is more a fake than the others stem cells clinics or LLLT clinics. Plus they appeared on Korean TV and they opened this year.
I don't know I'm just hopeful

Injecting steam cell in the ear is basically what Rivolta and the Japanese guy are doing. They just take time to find the right stem cell and ensure safety whereas those guys like in Korea just inject them and that's all.

Yes, and they claim a big success rate with that. It is hard to believe for me that "just injecting stem cells" doesn't come with some safety issues. On their site they don't mention anything about associated risks with such treatments, only successes so it seems. If I would undergo such treatment, I would want to know about the risks; what can go wrong? What are the probabilities of it going wrong? What are my chances for improvement? Also, how are the stem cells contained to only the inner ear in this treatment (I believe this was one of the problems with stem cell treatment of the inner ear)? There is very little background information about the treatment.

I also cannot find information about whether the Tinnitus actually improved. When you go into the "Hearing & Tinnitus/Meniere's disease" category on their site, you can find alleged testimonies of patients with audiometric hearing tests before and after the treatment. Most mention the hearing of the patient has improved in some ways, but no comments about the Tinnitus... While exactly that would be an interesting thing to know.

I'm not convinced so far.

 

[VRZ78]

The third last post in the tinnitus section speaks about tinnitus reduction.

The guy replies quickly I'm going to ask him all that

 

[lapidus]

I also cannot find information about whether the Tinnitus actually improved. When you go into the "Hearing & Tinnitus/Meniere's disease" category on their site, you can find alleged testimonies of patients with audiometric hearing tests before and after the treatment. Most mention the hearing of the patient has improved in some ways, but no comments about the Tinnitus... While exactly that would be an interesting thing to know.

Well there are some like:

"He has been suffering from tinnitus and hearing loss for 6 years. After Cheong-Min's treatment, his major symptoms all dispeared."

"I couldn't sleep well at nights because of tinnitus (noises in my ear)
After just 1 treatment noises calm down and i now can hear other people well.
For sure i can hear much better than before."

"Screeching tinnitus is heard in bilateral ears.
Tinnitus in 400Hz was found from tinnitus assessment.
Complains of occasional mishearing during conversation.
Onset was 2 years ago.
Showed no improvement after steroid injection performed in another hospital,
Visited out hospital after hearing that there is no way of treating the symptom.
After initial treatment, the symptom is improving and further treatment is scheduled."

I take it that it is the T they are talking about improving.

EDIT: I see now that there are 7 pages of testimonials and there are quite a few mentioning T improvement. If it's fake or not, I don't know.

 

[Vinnitus]

Well there are some like:

"He has been suffering from tinnitus and hearing loss for 6 years. After Cheong-Min's treatment, his major symptoms all dispeared."

"I couldn't sleep well at nights because of tinnitus (noises in my ear)
After just 1 treatment noises calm down and i now can hear other people well.
For sure i can hear much better than before."

"Screeching tinnitus is heard in bilateral ears.
Tinnitus in 400Hz was found from tinnitus assessment.
Complains of occasional mishearing during conversation.
Onset was 2 years ago.
Showed no improvement after steroid injection performed in another hospital,
Visited out hospital after hearing that there is no way of treating the symptom.
After initial treatment, the symptom is improving and further treatment is scheduled."

I take it that it is the T they are talking about improving.

EDIT: I see now that there are 7 pages of testimonials and there are quite a few mentioning T improvement. If it's fake or not, I don't know.

I see, there are indeed some statements here and there, but you have to look for it. Tinnitus improvement is of course hard to measure, as we have to this day no objective way of measurement. There are however some reasonably standardized questionnaires, like the Tinnitus Handicap Inventory (THI).

I think such a revolutionary and innovative treatment warrants a more official procedure with proper documentation of outcomes, like filling out such questionnaires before and after the treatment. The website gives me the impression this information is not properly gathered. I think it's in the clinic's best interest to provide the most complete information about their treatments and patient results. Also for scientific purposes this information would be invaluable, because as far as I understand, such treatments aren't performed on human subjects quite often yet (apart from maybe the Novartis trial).

Then there's the lack of background information about the treatment procedure, the background theory it's based on, the risks of the treatment, etcetera.

Another thing which caught my attention; he only provides audiograms up to 8kHz, while Tinnitus might be experienced (far) above this frequency. You would expect a high-frequency hearing test might at least be in place here...

Maybe I'm being too hard on this, as this clinic just opened up... From what I see now though, it doesn't inspire much confidence and leaves more questions than answers. It feels indeed like a "hail mary and hope for the best treatment", if it is real at all.

 

[Vinnitus]

The third last post in the tinnitus section speaks about tinnitus reduction.

The guy replies quickly I'm going to ask him all that

Please do. I'm curious to know about his reply. Thanks.

 

[VRZ78]

Here are his reply :

Are they any risks with the procedure ? -There were no severe , moderate , even mild adverse effects after my treatment.
What are the chances of improving tinnitus ? - It depends on your current hearing status, so I need your hearing result to guess the outcome.
Do you use something to make sure that the stem cells stay inside the inner ear? -Yes.Do you think it can hep with hyperacusis ?Yes .

 

[VRZ78]

I'd say we will have more informations with time or if a South Korean comes to this forum.

 

[spingee]

The third last post in the tinnitus section speaks about tinnitus reduction.

The guy replies quickly I'm going to ask him all that

Quick replys are another sign of fraud

 

[The Red Viper]

Tinnitus improvement is of course hard to measure, as we have to this day no objective way of measurement. There are however some reasonably standardized questionnaires, like the Tinnitus Handicap Inventory (THI).

THIS.

In my opinion this is the key impediment. If someone's subjective tinnitus could be objectively measured, then a treatment (better yet a cure) would be extremely close. At that point it would be simple trial and error for treatment researchers, while other researchers can delve into questions pertaining to cause and effect of tinnitus origin/etiology.

 

[spingee]

But good thing is they inject trough round window into cochlea, in past chinesse stem cell clinics only injected it to blood vessels.
So there is little bit more chance of success

 

[Vinnitus]

I'd say we will have more informations with time or if a South Korean comes to this forum.

Maybe our fellow member @Changwoo can be of assistance here.

@Changwoo I am not sure if you are still active here, but seeing you're from Seoul; can you find some more information about this clinic (Cheong-min Clinic - http://cmclinics.com/). Perhaps there are some experiences by patients or other informations about this clinic written in Korean? If so, could you be so kind to let us know?

 

[lapidus]

Maybe I'm being too hard on this, as this clinic just opened up... From what I see now though, it doesn't inspire much confidence and leaves more questions than answers. It feels indeed like a "hail mary" and hope for the best treatment, if it is real at all.

I totally agree, but would love to be proved wrong.

 

[Vinnitus]

Here are his reply :

Are they any risks with the procedure ? -There were no severe , moderate , even mild adverse effects after my treatment.
What are the chances of improving tinnitus ? - It depends on your current hearing status, so I need your hearing result to guess the outcome.
Do you use something to make sure that the stem cells stay inside the inner ear? -Yes.Do you think it can hep with hyperacusis ?Yes .

His answers aren't very elaborate unfortunately. I would like to know which theories and studies are used as a basis for his treatment. As far as I know, a compound or gel to limit the activity of stem cells to the inner ear was still being researched.

 

[Mricha37]

I wonder if the hearing cells could be one of those, its super complicated things...or super easy things we are over complicating. I had severe TMJ, I found a specialist and all he did was grind my teeth down in certain areas and BAM my tinnitus was much lower. Who would have thought a drimmel to my teeth would work lol.

 

[Vinnitus]

https://www.linkedin.com/in/minbo-shim-aa3b1ba2

Apparently this is our guy. It would be interesting to ask him if he is affiliated with the clinic mentioned above. Seeing as he is a doctor and indeed allegedly visited Stanford, his involvement with the clinic might increase credibility. Not much else can be found about this guy though. Even on LinkedIn he only appears to have 4 connections. I'll see if I can send him an e-mail.

 

[VRZ78]

The mail is info@cmclinics.com

 

[Vinnitus]

The mail is info@cmclinics.com

I will instead try to reach out to the doctor directly over LinkedIn. I do not know who is replying at the address you provided, might be some kind of receptionist. I would like to know if this doctor is indeed involved in this clinic.

 

[VRZ78]

The email I recieved were signed by his name

 

[Vinnitus]

The email I recieved were signed by his name

Okay, thats interesting. It might still be someone speaking on his behalf of course. Or someone using his name. That's hard to determine anyway.

I tried to inbox him on LinkedIn, but apparently it is a premium feature. He is also on twitter, but twitter does not allow to inbox him as well. I will see if I can find alternative ways to contact him directly and if there are any research papers with his name in it perhaps. He seems a quite important person in the research area if he visited and lectured at Stanford. His twitter account is here: https://twitter.com/updatemed

He also has a site on http://updatemed.com/, but it is written in Korean. Would be interesting if we can get this translated somehow. The CMClinic is also mentioned there. Still interesting.