2020 US Presidential Election

[Christiaan]

This question is way above my pay grade, ie I know nothing of Biden's policies. All I know is that Trump has turned out to be a disaster, although he has some decent ideas and has made some right moves, but these are unrelated to to trade deals with the UK. He says he has a love for the UK as his mother was Scottish, so there is the possibility this could sway him to making a fair deal with the UK, but I think his business mind will say otherwise.

I think you're right to think that the Trump administration has a more positive attitude towards the UK, as he and the GOP sees the EU more as a competitor than as an ally (which is true, as we have completely different view on environmental protection, animal rights, militarism, multilateral vs. unilateral agreements, protectionism European industries vs . foreign companies, Russia, etc). In that regard, Trump's USA and Johnson's Britain have more in common.

The Democratic Party and Biden's team have already signaled their willingness to cooperate more closely with the EU than with the UK, especially when it comes to trade. One important reason is the EU is a far bigger market and thus more lucrative than the UK. For example, Biden is intend to work on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and put the UK back of the queue in case of Brexit. Here's the text:

''And he added that Biden's administration "would be ill-advised to tie its hands with a UK trade deal before a return to some version of updated TTIP [Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership] negotiations with the European Union."

Biden advocated for the TTIP talks when he was vice-president under Barack Obama, with the president at the time warning the UK could end up "back of the queue" if it voted for Brexit.

Negotiations between the US and EU were halted under Trump, but Biden is said to favour a return of these talks over the offer of a Free Trade Agreement between the UK and US, with the Democratic Party in America continuing to signal a lack of enthusiasm for Brexit.''

Link:
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/trump-deal-could-be-scuppered-by-joe-biden-1-6786450
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...e-deal-donald-trump-joe-biden-us-election-spt

 

[all to gain]

I think you're right to think that the Trump administration has a more positive attitude towards the UK, as he and the GOP sees the EU more as a competitor than as an ally (which is true, as we have completely different view on environmental protection, animal rights, militarism, multilateral vs. unilateral agreements, protectionism European industries vs . foreign companies, Russia, etc). In that regard, Trump's USA and Johnson's Britain have more in common.

The Democratic Party and Biden's team have already signaled their willingness to cooperate more closely with the EU than with the UK, especially when it comes to trade. One important reason is the EU is a far bigger market and thus more lucrative than the UK. For example, Biden is intend to work on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and put the UK back of the queue in case of Brexit. Here's the text:

''And he added that Biden's administration "would be ill-advised to tie its hands with a UK trade deal before a return to some version of updated TTIP [Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership] negotiations with the European Union."

Biden advocated for the TTIP talks when he was vice-president under Barack Obama, with the president at the time warning the UK could end up "back of the queue" if it voted for Brexit.

Negotiations between the US and EU were halted under Trump, but Biden is said to favour a return of these talks over the offer of a Free Trade Agreement between the UK and US, with the Democratic Party in America continuing to signal a lack of enthusiasm for Brexit.''

Link:
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/trump-deal-could-be-scuppered-by-joe-biden-1-6786450
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...e-deal-donald-trump-joe-biden-us-election-spt

All that said, I still think Trump needs to go. He's a disaster in too many ways. If only he could keep his mouth and ego in check.

The UK is going to find its way, one way or another, but it will be a very tough time. It wouldn't surprise me if, sooner or later, it votes to return to the EU. But it will be in a much weakened state.

Again though, I don't see the EU surviving forever, and I feel, ultimately, it is better out of rather than in the EU.

 

[Lilah]

So, I haven't followed any political issues or news except YouTube as it exploded with the Biden's new VP choice, Kamala Harris. Aside from that, what's the current view of the two contenders, Biden vs Trump?

Biden/Harris ticket is not a strong ticket. Biden would have fared better if he had chosen Sanders or Warren, who excite the Democratic base. Instead he locked himself early into selecting a Black woman. I think it is going to be a close race but Trump will probably have an edge if the economy improves. Right now, businesses are improving as seen by stock market growth but mom and pop shops/small businesses are still suffering. Also, in a few months time, unless there is a big surge in the virus, most people will be ready for things to resume to normal. A lot of lower middle class who do not have telework options want their kids to return to school. Trump is also restarting his daily briefings which always help his ratings. Biden has rarely been out in the public so far, but that could change.

 

[PeteJ]

Biden/Harris ticket is not a strong ticket. Biden would have fared better if he had chosen Sanders or Warren, who excite the Democratic base. Instead he locked himself early into selecting a Black woman. I think it is going to be a close race but Trump will probably have an edge if the economy improves. Right now, businesses are improving as seen by stock market growth but mom and pop shops/small businesses are still suffering. Also, in a few months time, unless there is a big surge in the virus, most people will be ready for things to resume to normal. A lot of lower middle class who do not have telework options want their kids to return to school. Trump is also restarting his daily briefings which always help his ratings. Biden has rarely been out in the public so far, but that could change.

If the Democrats were in, e.g. Biden would have listened to the politicians screaming to shut down the economy and it would be worse right now. The 'mom and pop' and small businesses are suffering because of this and also because of the looting. There's many stories of small business owners saying their business was destroyed by looters who smashed their store.

 

[Tanni]

I suppose some would call Joe Biden's running mate abhorrent if they are Pro-Life.

Kamala Harris is pro-abortion? I didn't know that. Thought most of the candidates were anti-abortion now. Good to know, although it will count against her.

 

[Christiaan]

Biden/Harris ticket is not a strong ticket. Biden would have fared better if he had chosen Sanders or Warren, who excite the Democratic base. Instead he locked himself early into selecting a Black woman. I think it is going to be a close race but Trump will probably have an edge if the economy improves. Right now, businesses are improving as seen by stock market growth but mom and pop shops/small businesses are still suffering. Also, in a few months time, unless there is a big surge in the virus, most people will be ready for things to resume to normal. A lot of lower middle class who do not have telework options want their kids to return to school. Trump is also restarting his daily briefings which always help his ratings. Biden has rarely been out in the public so far, but that could change.

What you're saying might explain why the CNN poll shows a small 4% lead of Biden/Harris vs. Trump/Pence. A month ago, this was 14%. Biden's lack of exposure, lack of policy clarity, taking progressives for granted and courting centrists/moderate republicans vs. Trump's plan to keep the economy rolling might make this all a very challenging presidential elections.

 

[Christiaan]

It doesn't matter what the general public wants, it is what the rich donors and corporate interests want. That's the problem with neo-liberalism and why it doesn't gel with true progressivism.

If Trump wasn't quite as abhorrent, I would sit this election out honestly.

@FGG It was former Vice President Henry Wallace who said in 1948:

''Both parties are the champions of big business. The Republican Party admits it. The Democratic Party attempts to conceal it.''

It's almost 70 years ago when he said this, but we can still see that both parties sell their values to corporations at the expense of Americans. One way or another, Dems' third way economics will create the same outcome like the Republican Neoliberal policy, only at a slower pace. Luckily, a lot of people realise this and are actively involved in creating a People's Party that will truly work for the many, and not the few. If the party gains traction, hopefully it will make America free from this corporatocracy.

 

[FGG]

@FGG It was former Vice President Henry Wallace who said in 1948:

''Both parties are the champions of big business. The Republican Party admits it. The Democratic Party attempts to conceal it.''

It's almost 70 years ago when he said this, but we can still see that both parties sell their values to corporations at the expense of Americans. One way or another, Dems' third way economics will create the same outcome like the Republican Neoliberal policy, only at a slower pace. Luckily, a lot of people realise this and are actively involved in creating a People's Party that will truly work for the many, and not the few. If the party gains traction, hopefully it will make America free from this corporatocracy.

Citizens United was one of the worst decisions ever made for US politics. It all but totally ensures that what's good for corporations will always be the priority in American politics.

 

[Born To Slay]

Kamala Harris is pro-abortion? I didn't know that. Thought most of the candidates were anti-abortion now. Good to know, although it will count against her.

Most Democrats, including Biden, are pro choice.

 

[PeteJ]

@FGG It was former Vice President Henry Wallace who said in 1948:

''Both parties are the champions of big business. The Republican Party admits it. The Democratic Party attempts to conceal it.''

It's almost 70 years ago when he said this, but we can still see that both parties sell their values to corporations at the expense of Americans. One way or another, Dems' third way economics will create the same outcome like the Republican Neoliberal policy, only at a slower pace. Luckily, a lot of people realise this and are actively involved in creating a People's Party that will truly work for the many, and not the few. If the party gains traction, hopefully it will make America free from this corporatocracy.

Who said the parties are the same and some liberals chastised me for it? Oh yeah, I remember.

But, I better shut up before I am reported. No need to reply directly. Just making an observation.

 

[Carlos1]

Kamala Harris is pro-abortion? I didn't know that. Thought most of the candidates were anti-abortion now. Good to know, although it will count against her.

@Tanni
Not only pro-abortion but she's ok with late term abortion up to 9 months.
To me that's just unconscionable.

 

[Zugzug]

I really can't believe we ended up with Biden as the guy to stop Trump. Even Obama knows it's embarrassing.

https://www.businessinsider.com/obama-privately-voiced-concerns-joe-biden-could-f-things-up-2020-8

"Obama's support this year for Biden's presidential run was markedly qualified. As the Daily Mail noted, he said earlier this year: "I believe Joe has all of the qualities we need in a president right now … and I know he will surround himself with good people."

It contrasted with Obama's endorsement of Hillary Clinton in 2016, when he said: "I don't think there's ever been someone so qualified to hold this office."

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I honestly think Obama was like, "shit, well, we have to roll with this to save our democracy." I also think that Joe's run makes Obama look more narcissistic than perhaps he really is. I really think Obama wanted to retire, but is being pulled back in.

 

[Tanni]

I really can't believe we ended up with Biden as the guy to stop Trump. Even Obama knows it's embarrassing.

https://www.businessinsider.com/obama-privately-voiced-concerns-joe-biden-could-f-things-up-2020-8

"Obama's support this year for Biden's presidential run was markedly qualified. As the Daily Mail noted, he said earlier this year: "I believe Joe has all of the qualities we need in a president right now … and I know he will surround himself with good people."

It contrasted with Obama's endorsement of Hillary Clinton in 2016, when he said: "I don't think there's ever been someone so qualified to hold this office."

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I honestly think Obama was like, "shit, well, we have to roll with this to save our democracy." I also think that Joe's run makes Obama look more narcissistic than perhaps he really is. I really think Obama wanted to retire, but is being pulled back in.

Yes, it was a very muted endorsement, to say the least. I think the pair of them (Biden and Trump) are too old and out of touch for the job unfortunately. Neither of them seem very... energized.

 

[Tanni]

@Tanni
Not only pro-abortion but she's ok with late term abortion up to 9 months.
To me that's just unconscionable.

She presumably means in the instances where there is something wrong with the child or the mother and it is medically necessary to abort in the third trimester? Because the alternative to this is letting both the mother and baby die horribly on a technicality, and nobody wants that.

I'm pro-abortion btw -- I would never physically force a woman to grow a baby inside her body and give birth to it against her will, that's sick and macabre. Or force two people to grow another person from their DNA even though they have decided the day the egg is fertilized that they don't want to. I can't imagine caring about an egg more than a person/people; it seems like a failure in both logic and empathy to me. I feel this is the way America is going though.

 

[Christiaan]

I really can't believe we ended up with Biden as the guy to stop Trump. Even Obama knows it's embarrassing.

https://www.businessinsider.com/obama-privately-voiced-concerns-joe-biden-could-f-things-up-2020-8

"Obama's support this year for Biden's presidential run was markedly qualified. As the Daily Mail noted, he said earlier this year: "I believe Joe has all of the qualities we need in a president right now … and I know he will surround himself with good people."

It contrasted with Obama's endorsement of Hillary Clinton in 2016, when he said: "I don't think there's ever been someone so qualified to hold this office."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly think Obama was like, "shit, well, we have to roll with this to save our democracy." I also think that Joe's run makes Obama look more narcissistic than perhaps he really is. I really think Obama wanted to retire, but is being pulled back in.

Elections aren't honestly about discussing policy anymore, but more about how you feel about a candidate or what you associate with the person in question. This is what Naomi Klein calls ''Branding''. Branding isn't exclusive to companies. Even businessmen, celebrities & politicians can develop themselves into brands. And we know brands sell themselves & are build on a fictional narrative.

Let's start with Trump, as he represents a very clear example of that. There's a reason why real estate developers want to pay Donald Trump to put his name on their towers & buildings. His name represents competency, confidence, intelligence, etc. That creates prestige for the real estate developers & for the companies that are located in those buildings. These attributes that we associate with the brand Trump is a matter of perception and not based on facts per se, as Trump's image can be carefully constructed by spin doctors and the way he is framed on TV, such in series like The Apprentice (a self made, competent & strategically intelligent businessman) and in the movie Home Alone 2 (a likeable & approachable character who helps the protagonist finding his way to the lobby).

This partially explains why a lot of people voted for him, because they associate his brand in the same way as his leadership (or as it ought to be): competent, likeable & approachable (thus close to the people) & intelligent enough to run America. In real life, most of his companies & real estate were not that successful, yet the creation of the brand Trump and thus the fictional narrative of a successful businessmen is a construct that has an incredible influence on certain kind of people/voters. It mostly concerns voters (low information seekers in political terms) who do not do extensive research, analysis, comparison of sources to come to a conclusion, etc.

Biden has build his image/brand in a different way than Trump throughout his career as a politician: he presents himself as a team player (supported president Obama as Vice President), pragmatic (working across the isle with segregationists, conservatives & progressives), a champion of middle and lower class America (always talks about his humble upbringing in Pennsylvania & he understands their struggles ) ,a likeable character (laughs at his own gaffes, sometimes clumsy, likes to hug people), a supporter of the Obama legacy (supported a black president and represents idea of political stability), etc. All in all, he represents several attributes that appeals to a lot of people. In a certain way, he's the average Joe that everyone knows. That makes him a very popular guy to a lot of people, and that allows him to compensate for his cloudy and less substantive platform (a main critique is that he often flip-flops and that his political compass often switches between moderate conservatism & liberalism throughout his career).

This is just the way how politics rolls nowadays. A positive thing is that politics is made more approachable for some people, as they connect politicians via branding with ideas. On the other hand, it also weakens politics in a way that less competent people can be chosen for a political position on the basis of a fictional narrative/branding that they are competent, intelligent, etc. This is at the expense of those who want to offer a substantive, carefully considered political agenda, but lack the charisma, political connections, media exposure and money to achieve their goals.

 

[WillBeNimble]

No one is really pro-abortion, they're pro-choice. There are very few people who actually celebrate abortions, even most pro-choice people would rather there be less abortions, but they'd rather see it happen because of the improvement of underlying conditions that lead to abortions, not because we have removed choice from people.

 

[FGG]

Who said the parties are the same and some liberals chastised me for it? Oh yeah, I remember.

But, I better shut up before I am reported. No need to reply directly. Just making an observation.

Why would you be reported for saying that?

Both parties have their issues but one is just worse than the other imo. And that difference is significant enough that I, someone who feels the DNC does not support true progressivism will still vote for Biden.

 

[just1morething]

I would never physically force a woman to grow a baby inside her body

The father of the baby should have some say. I've heard many women have a guilt trip later on in life if they terminate a pregnancy. It seems like a very abhorrent thing to do to an unborn. Also many religions are against it.

 

[FGG]

The father of the baby should have some say. I've heard many women have a guilt trip later on in life if they terminate a pregnancy. It seems like a very abhorrent thing to do to an unborn. Also many religions are against it.

Soon there will be reliable long term contraception for men and then can help avoid unplanned pregnancy, which would decrease abortions (along with female contraception).

https://www.parsemus.org/vasalgel/

Most abortions are medical, not surgical and the pill is widely available on the black market in countries that prohibit it. For that reason, the only real way to reduce abortions is family planning and education which weirdly a lot of conservatives are against.

 

[Tanni]

The father of the baby should have some say. I've heard many women have a guilt trip later on in life if they terminate a pregnancy. It seems like a very abhorrent thing to do to an unborn. Also many religions are against it.

Agreed on the father having some say.

I don't think the solution to preventing some women feeling guilty is to force all women to give birth. The parents must decide for themselves -- it's not always an easy decision, but it must always be a decision nonetheless.

Also, not to be crude but when I have a period it's an unborn child. When a man ejaculates, those are unborn children. We don't have to bring every single possibility of life to fruition. It's different when it develops into a baby with the ability to feel. I do wonder where people's priorities are that an egg with no consciousness is given more rights than the man and woman being forced to have it.

The religion thing doesn't factor into it unless the parents want it to. Religion (like the law) is not morality.

 

[aot]

Women are going to get abortions anyway. No matter what. Be it on the plantations in order to prevent their children from living in Slavery, to modern day Brazil because ten years old is too young to be a mother.

To anyone who's "Pro-Life", answer me this: Would you rather these women risk their lives performing shoddy, home procedures? Potentially die giving birth to a child they might very well resent?

Or would you rather they get a safe, legal abortion from a medical practitioner who's trained in such matters?

 

[FGG]

@just1morething, just curious but what would you have said about my friend's case:

She was 3 months pregnant with her second child (very wanted and planned for) when she got diagnosed with breast cancer. She had two choices, wait 6 months to start Chemo (and with that her odds with her type of breast cancer -- Her2+ would plummet) or start Chemo.

Thing is, she would have maybe chosen to take the chance if she didn't already have a 2 year old at home. Her very Catholic sister encouraged her not to have an abortion and to just pray instead but when she asked her if they would then help raise her daughter (with her child's father) if she died and help financially support her, crickets.

She ended up having the abortion and her daughter is 8 years old now and extremely close to her mom.

She does still grieve for this choice she had to make as do most women who do. It's a decision almost no women would take lightly but there are definitely many, many situations where they need that choice.

And if you make abortion up to the father, delaying a split decision with a court case means the baby gestates into later trimesters and you have situations where a rapist could easily force a woman to have his baby. Do I need to outline for you why making abortion access a rape trial would be a bad thing?

That leads me into Roe vs Wade in which the trial described two important variables: right to privacy and right to life of unborn. They ruled that in first trimester right to privacy is most important (so you don't have to prove horrible things like rape and incest to get an abortion) and it can't be restricted, in the second trimester, it's up to states to limit or allow access and third is illegal in every state except for a non viable or severely malformed fetus or the life of the mother. Roe vs Wade is actually a more nuanced and sensitive compromise than it's given credit for.

And, thankfully, the majority of abortions are early abortions. From the CDC website:

"91.0% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation; a smaller number of abortions (7.7%) were performed at 14–20 weeks' gestation, and even fewer (1.2%) were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation"

 

[just1morething]

Trump is live at the airport in Mankato, Minnesota.

 

[Zugzug]

Who said the parties are the same and some liberals chastised me for it? Oh yeah, I remember.

lol, what you are actually doing is cherry picking the opinions of the moderate liberal and then blaming the progressive for it. Moderate liberals tend to believe that the Democratic party (though flawed) is much better than the Republican party. They may even question far deviations from the party. These people tend to get angry at the proposition of not voting or voting third party because they see a true difference.

@Christiaan, by all accounts, views the current policies from either party as not nearly good enough. You are acting like he has been shilling for the Democratic party, and is now quoted as saying that both parties are the same. Also, people can see that you claim to be a "both parties are the same" person, but your rhetoric shows significantly more concern for the left. You haven't proven anything.

It's so funny to me that you think the viewpoint of "both parties are corrupt" is so enlightened and novel. It's basically the most ordinary position possible -- hence why only ~55% of the American population votes. If you asked a random person on the street what they think of politics, they will tell you that both sides bicker and accomplish nothing.

 

[Tanni]

No one is really pro-abortion, they're pro-choice. There are very few people who actually celebrate abortions, even most pro-choice people would rather there be less abortions, but they'd rather see it happen because of the improvement of underlying conditions that lead to abortions, not because we have removed choice from people.

I know it's not really a big thing, but I personally prefer the terms pro-abortion and anti-abortion. I think saying 'pro-choice' is a way of making abortion sound more palatable to people who are anti-abortion/pro-life, almost like a concession. We don't need to do that, in my opinion. Abortion is not shameful.

The same is true of 'pro-life'. Aren't we all pro-life in the wider sense? But the term 'pro-life' is used to make the anti-abortion stance sound more palatable to those who are pro-abortion/pro-choice. If we use those terms, that means that as someone who supports the right to abortion, I have to say that I am not pro-life?

I just think the terms pro and anti abortion are more honest. Everyone knows where they stand. But that's just me.

 

[Tanni]

Trump is live at the airport in Mankato, Minnesota.

That's quite exciting actually -- it would be cool to see a rally of his in person. Are you there right now?

 

[just1morething]

 

[just1morething]

That's quite exciting actually -- it would be cool to see a rally of his in person. Are you there right now?

No, it was not open to the general public.

 

[PeteJ]

lol, what you are actually doing is cherry picking the opinions of the moderate liberal and then blaming the progressive for it. Moderate liberals tend to believe that the Democratic party (though flawed) is much better than the Republican party. They may even question far deviations from the party. These people tend to get angry at the proposition of not voting or voting third party because they see a true difference.

@Christiaan, by all accounts, views the current policies from either party as not nearly good enough. You are acting like he has been shilling for the Democratic party, and is now quoted as saying that both parties are the same. Also, people can see that you claim to be a "both parties are the same" person, but your rhetoric shows significantly more concern for the left. You haven't proven anything.

It's so funny to me that you think the viewpoint of "both parties are corrupt" is so enlightened and novel. It's basically the most ordinary position possible -- hence why only ~55% of the American population votes. If you asked a random person on the street what they think of politics, they will tell you that both sides bicker and accomplish nothing.

You are IGNORING my point again. I said both parties are the same and ALL OF YOU mocked me and disagreed. Now, I am reading posts from the same people saying both are corporate/corrupt/the same etc. Make up your mind. You just argue against me with no real point or accuracy.

BTW, "flawed." LOL. Is that what you call it?

Edit: if you are so enlightened and acknowledge the corruption etc., still voting for them and support makes you irrational.

 

[just1morething]

And if you make abortion up to the father, delaying a split decision with a court case means the baby gestates into later trimesters and you have situations where a rapist could easily force a woman to have his baby.

What percent of abortions are due to rape? I would think very low. I admit a lot more is at stake for a woman than a man. Carrying a baby full term would take a lot of responsibility that men probably can't fully relate to. Your friend's case was a very tough decision for sure. I suppose her doctor's opinion weighed in on her decision heavily. I hope her cancer is under control.