South Korean Clinic Treatment (Dr. Minbo Shim)

[RaZaH]

You are referring to trials about a T cure

Not really , his treatment is to restore hearing , not treat tinnitus specifically.

Maybe I am not following the latest developments , are there companies in clinical trials doing regenerative therapies?
Mostly it seems like some rats got some treatment , usually with major caveats.
I might not be up to date ?

 

[Rubenslash]

Not really , his treatment is to restore hearing , not treat tinnitus specifically.

Maybe I am not following the latest developments , are there companies in clinical trials doing regenerative therapies?
Mostly it seems like some rats got some treatment , usually with major caveats.
I might not be up to date ?

Genvec is in a phase 1 trial but it takes a long time, not sure if this will be the company that will help us.

I believe that Frequency therapeutics, Decibel therapeutics and Audion therapeutics will all start trials in 2018 to regenerate hair cells. I am quite confident these companies will come up with something better than this guy here. They won't start a trial with a product that barely works.

 

[RaZaH]

@vaka what is your take on this so far ?

 

[RaZaH]

It also seems to vary a lot in the hi freq , in some cases there are massive improvements in the 6-8 area and sometimes quite drastic drops, up to 20db in some cases. Scary stuff.

 

[Artemis2K]

One thing I know for certain is that the gene therapies will probably not be available for people with low level degrees of loss, for a long time. I once emailed one of the doctors working on the treatments, and he said that people in my case would not be candidates because of the harm the treatments would cause. The do not harm approach is sacred, so I don't think they want to attempt on people who have okay hearing.

So, if Shim's treatment is genuine, and there are even full success stories, that's amazing. Whatever growth factor Minbo Shim is using must be doing wonders. However, I personally don't think he is growing new haircells. I think he is giving lingering haircells a breath of life. That's just my theory. There are limits to his treatment. It would explain why the higher frequencies don't acquire much development and sometimes regress.

If I am wrong, and it's better than I thought (besides the obvious possibility of bs), then I would be impressed. But, ultimately, I think we're kidding ourselves to expect completely risk free or perfection. The ear is a fragile little brat.

 

[RaZaH]

Yes, its worrying that there are losses in some cases at 6-8khz , who knows what happens above that?
Not dr, shinbo , he doesnt even check , which I find amazing , I would think he would at least be interested in knowing .

 

[RaZaH]

One thing I know for certain is that the gene therapies will probably not be available for certain groups of people with degrees of loss for a long time. I once emailed one of the doctors working on the treatments, and he said that people in my case would not be candidates because of the harm the treatments would cause. The do not harm approach is sacred.

What harm would that cause ?

 

[Artemis2K]

What harm would that cause ?

I edited my statement. Lousy wording.

Basically, the approaches they use now, they don't want people with good hearing as candidates because they are afraid they will harm them further. I don't really know any further detail.

 

[VRZ78]

What harm would that cause ?

I don't know much myself but since gene therapy is supposed to turn supporting cells in new hearing cell + new supporting cell, probably creating new hair cell when they are already all here or almost would create issue.

At least the problem doesn't seems to happen with stem cell because they detect that the HC are dead and turn into a new one.

 

[vaka]

Genvec is in a phase 1 trial but it takes a long time, not sure if this will be the company that will help us.

I believe that Frequency therapeutics, Decibel therapeutics and Audion therapeutics will all start trials in 2018 to regenerate hair cells. I am quite confident these companies will come up with something better than this guy here. They won't start a trial with a product that barely works.

Do you have any source about future trials?

@vaka what is your take on this so far ?

I think the doctor is legit and that he is using IGF-1 delivered through the middle ear and Stem cells intravenously. In my opinion his main treatment target is hearing loss. Also I am looking at his treatment from the hearing loss perspective, because I am affected of strong high frequency hearing loss.

When I look through the audiograms, I have the impression, that the treatment is not that effective.
Sometimes just one frequency improves for only 10db. This could mean very much to someone, but this is far from "being healed".
Sometimes there are patients which show a massive improvement over many frequencies. In those cases, I wonder if they had their last sudden hearling loss right before the treatment. IGF-1 shows great potential for people with sudden sensorineural hearing loss.
Despite that i think, that his treatment increases the protection of hair cells which would slow down the degeneration of the cochlea.
I would advise anyone with a mild hearing loss against his treatment, because you cannot know if it somehow gets worse. I would rather use hearing aids whe the hearing loss would bother me.

Personally I would go there. Because at the frequencies starting from 6khz I have nothing left to lose. Therefore I am not afraid that it would do any harm to me.
But I do not believe that I could go there and have my hearing loss healed. I would go there with the hope that I am one of the lucky guys who gains 10db to 20db in the range from 2 to 4khz.

Currently I am testing different top-notch hearing aids and in the following weeks I will have an appointment with a leading ENT clinic in Tübingen, Germany. I want them to have a look at my hearing loss. When I find a solution which helps me a lot more than my current hearing aids, I will just wait until one day a treatment is available in my country.
If I don't find hearing aids which help me much more than my current and if the guys from the clinic tell me that they can't do anything about that, I will try out the korean guy for sure.

The only thing that hinders me is money, because, it could either not work for me or even worse, the guy is the greatest scam-artist in history and just takes the money and injects salted-water or whatever has no effect.

 

[Artemis2K]

I don't know much myself but since gene therapy is supposed to turn supporting cells in new hearing cell + new supporting cell, probably creating new hair cell when they are already all here or almost would create issue.

At least the problem doesn't seems to happen with stem cell because they detect that the HC are dead and turn into a new one.

I just remembered something. In previous email exchanges with scientists, I learned that they are afraid that the gene therapy would grow far too many haircells, to the point where they overcrowd each other. They were also worried they wouldn't be able to control it. I would certainly see why they would be afraid they would hurt the cochlear structures with overcrowding or whatever else. Maybe the hacked virus would also risk degenerating some parts as well. I think that messing up the stimulation is a huge concern.

Besides that, they are also afraid the treatments could cause harm, like with how some here have been discussing nt3. I think I have read in many places that destruction through surgical procedure is also a worry, because, I think, some aren't using a round-window approach.

 

[Artemis2K]

I think the doctor is legit and that he is using IGF-1 delivered through the middle ear and Stem cells intravenously. In my opinion his main treatment target is hearing loss. Also I am looking at his treatment from the hearing loss perspective, because I am affected of strong high frequency hearing loss.

When I look through the audiograms, I have the impression, that the treatment is not that effective.
Sometimes just one frequency improves for only 10db. This could mean very much to someone, but this is far from "being healed".
Sometimes there are patients which show a massive improvement over many frequencies. In those cases, I wonder if they had their last sudden hearling loss right before the treatment. IGF-1 shows great potential for people with sudden sensorineural hearing loss.
Despite that i think, that his treatment increases the protection of hair cells which would slow down the degeneration of the cochlea.
I would advise anyone with a mild hearing loss against his treatment, because you cannot know if it somehow gets worse. I would rather use hearing aids whe the hearing loss would bother me.

Personally I would go there. Because at the frequencies starting from 6khz I have nothing left to lose. Therefore I am not afraid that it would do any harm to me.
But I do not believe that I could go there and have my hearing loss healed. I would go there with the hope that I am one of the lucky guys who gains 10db to 20db in the range from 2 to 4khz.

Currently I am testing different top-notch hearing aids and in the following weeks I will have an appointment with a leading ENT clinic in Tübingen, Germany. I want them to have a look at my hearing loss. When I find a solution which helps me a lot more than my current hearing aids, I will just wait until one day a treatment is available in my country.
If I don't find hearing aids which help me much more than my current and if the guys from the clinic tell me that they can't do anything about that, I will try out the korean guy for sure.

The only thing that hinders me is money, because, it could either not work for me or even worse, the guy is the greatest scam-artist in history and just takes the money and injects salted-water or whatever has no effect.

I really hope we know more soon, and that he releases more data. I have seen nothing but good in audiograms that have similar loss that I do. If I knew more information no doubt I would jump at the chance. My tinnitus misery makes it kind of worth the risk. But still, I want to know more.

 

[RaZaH]

At this point his "Research and data" are severely lacking. Having no clue what happens after 8khz and still providing this treatment is unbelievable. That alone means I cant trust him..
We have to be careful when we really "want" something to work , it can cloud our judgement.

 

[Aaron123]

I really hope we know more soon, and that he releases more data.

At this point his "Research and data" are severely lacking.

It seems very unlikely that people are going to get the information they are looking for. Absent actual trials and published papers, it's not possible to judge effectiveness. The posted audiograms are not helpful since they are presumably a non-random subset of all people treated. It would be nominally helpful to see audiograms from everyone treated. It's also not clear the treatment is the same across people, and there is no independent information about any potential side effects. I have seen nothing that suggests that any of this information will be forthcoming. Even if information was posted tomorrow that had audiograms to 16 kHz and claimed the be from the entire population of patients, folks would still have to decide if they believed it. How would you know it is the full population? How would you know about side effects?

 

[VRZ78]

Sucks that the ministry of Health doesn't have mail online phone numbers and I don't speak Korean... We could at least know if it is a complete scam or if he is really allowed to do his treatment...

 

[Christian78]

please, i am on bed place now really, terible... can someone give me links to posts where they show what frequencies they repair and what they louse and tell me what they think about this clinick?

please

http://www.vaultstemcell.com/treatm...ses-college-students-autoimmune-hearing-loss/

 

[VRZ78]

please, i am on bed place now really, terible... can someone give me links to posts where they show what frequencies they repair and what they louse and tell me what they think about this clinick?

please

http://www.vaultstemcell.com/treatm...ses-college-students-autoimmune-hearing-loss/

http://cmclinics.com/

Are you sure that your problems comes from damage of your ears ? Otherwise I'm not sure it will help.

I think it is legitimate but we don't know what portion of the patients are seeing improvements.

The frequencies that might get worse are 6 or 8. It can get worse by 10-20b but they were cases where they improved by like 30db. Otherwise all frequencies can improve.

 

[VRZ78]

If you're not sure that the problem comes from your ears a regular stem cell treatment might be better, like at stem cell 21. But it is much more expensive

 

[Christian78]

If you're not sure that the problem comes from your ears a regular stem cell treatment might be better, like at stem cell 21. But it is much more expensive

What is regular stem cell treatment and what it could fix so tinnitus becomes less?

 

[VRZ78]

The treatment of Mimbo Shim is focusing on regenerating the cochlea. He therefore inject growth factors inside the ear and stem cell intravenously, but the stem cell used are from you own body and therefore are not really potent to turn into cells that lives in the cochlea but can regenerate nerves.

A regular stem cells treatment involves the injection of stem cells and growth factors intravenously. But the stem cells used in a case are ombilicale cord stem cells which are more potent. They have higher chances of turning into neurons and therefore regenerating brain issues or brain seizures. The best would be to have those kind of stem cells injected inside the ear via intratympanic injection but no clinics seems to offers it, and the way to deliver the stem cells this way is still under research.

 

[Rasmus]

If you're not sure that the problem comes from your ears a regular stem cell treatment might be better, like at stem cell 21. But it is much more expensive

How can you be sure where its comming from. I think mine is from my ears, but im not sure, i have used headset for 10 year or so because i have been playing alot of video game, so i guess my ear is damage, but the ENT said my hearing was fine, but i dont think i hear perfect my self because i have a hard time hearing what people are saying, i can hear normal sounds but when people talk its a little hard to hear sometimes(ofc this is harder when there is a lot of noise around me) But i can make my T louder when im do tension in my troat(Sorry im not sure if this is the right word since i suck at english ) I can only make it louder.

Sorry bad english :/

 

[VRZ78]

How can you be sure where its comming from. I think mine is from my ears, but im not sure, i have used headset for 10 year or so because i have been playing alot of video game, so i guess my ear is damage, but the ENT said my hearing was fine, but i dont think i hear perfect my self because i have a hard time hearing what people are saying, i can hear normal sounds but when people talk its a little hard to hear sometimes(ofc this is harder when there is a lot of noise around me) But i can make my T louder when im do tension in my troat(Sorry im not sure if this is the right word since i suck at english ) I can only make it louder.

Sorry bad english :/

Well if you had accoustic trauma, ear infection or virus when the T started then it's obvious... But yeah if it came out of the blue it's harder. Maybe try to the a chiropractor, an osteopath or do acupuncture

 

[Rasmus]

Well if you had accoustic trauma, ear infection or virus when the T started then it's obvious... But yeah if it came out of the blue it's harder. Maybe try to the a chiropractor, an osteopath or do acupuncture

I just startet doing acupuncture 2 weeks ago and im gonna do it again next week to see if that helps, but i guess my T is from hidden hearing loss.
http://www.hear-it.org/hidden-hearing-loss This links talks about hidden hearing loss and i fell like i have this :/ and they are talking about loud music in headset, im not gonna lie i have done this a few times :/ but most of the time i played games like call of duty and counter strike where there is loud sound effects.

Thanks for answer and the info about what i could try

 

[Artemis2K]

please, i am on bed place now really, terible... can someone give me links to posts where they show what frequencies they repair and what they louse and tell me what they think about this clinick?

please

http://www.vaultstemcell.com/treatm...ses-college-students-autoimmune-hearing-loss/

If you mean Cheong-Min, just look at the start of this thread. Also go to the Cheong-Min websites, updatemed.com and cmclinics.com

As for the Chloe Sohl story, she actually has a Facebook profile and is willing to answer questions. I am certain her story is legitimate.

I sympathize with your situation, and I wish you the best and send out many hugs.

 

[Aaron123]

tell me what they think about this clinick?

I believe RNL Bio no longer exists. On-line links seem to dry up in 2013. The CEO was arrested on insider trading charges, and this article points to a host of other issues: http://www.healthintheglobalvillage...is-arrested-and-charged-with-insider-trading/ There's also some information (albeit from 2010) about stem cells in South Korea at http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101123/full/468485a.html

Given the way South Korean FDA requirements are discussed, unless something has changed, the stem cell clinic under discussion in this thread would seem to be operating in the same grey area as clinics in the US.

 

[Artemis2K]

I believe RNL Bio no longer exists. On-line links seem to dry up in 2013. The CEO was arrested on insider trading charges, and this article points to a host of other issues: http://www.healthintheglobalvillage...is-arrested-and-charged-with-insider-trading/ There's also some information (albeit from 2010) about stem cells in South Korea at http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101123/full/468485a.html

According to this link, it is indeed defunct. http://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20161122000643

 

[Rasmus]

Not really , his treatment is to restore hearing , not treat tinnitus specifically.

Maybe I am not following the latest developments , are there companies in clinical trials doing regenerative therapies?
Mostly it seems like some rats got some treatment , usually with major caveats.
I might not be up to date ?

When you talk about him restore hearing why does that not cure T? Is T comming from something else then hearing loss?

 

[Artemis2K]

When you talk about him restore hearing why does that not cure T? Is T comming from something else then hearing loss?

The treatment does supposedly help tinnitus though, according to some of the clinic site's posts. It just doesn't completely tackle it and isn't the main goal. However, I have seen a few of those posts mention that and say really positive outcome.

 

[Rasmus]

The treatment does supposedly help tinnitus though, according to some of the clinic site's posts. It just doesn't completely tackle it and isn't the main goal. However, I have seen a few of those posts mention that and say really positive outcome.

I guess that because its not perfect yet

 

[Artemis2K]

I guess that because its not perfect yet

Still, the fact that some people have claimed great results in regards to tinnitus, is remarkable.