War in Ukraine — Megathread

[ZFire]

This phrase alone shows your toxic bias against Russians. Do you have any idea what insane racial segregation and Bandera worship was happening in Donbas and Luhansk for decades before the SMO? How Ukrainian nationalists would beat up Russian citizens in the street for not knowing the Ukrainian National anthem by heart? I doubt you were very interested in what was happening there for many years before it was brought to the spotlight of western media because "Russia Bad".

Yeah, lots of Russian speaking residents of Donbass have died after being forcibly conscripted by Russia. I doubt the survivors think highly of the Kremlin anymore lol.

And no, Russia aren't defending or protecting ethnic Russians in Ukraine. They were too busy launching cruise missiles into apartment blocks and attempting to destroy all the electrical infrastructure so people could freeze to death.

Anyone that looks at Mariupol or Bakhmut (Donetsk Oblast regions) can't say that Russia is there to save anyone. He is bombing the very people he claimed were oppressed and turning cities into rubble.

Anyways, the situation in Donbas and Luhansk prior to the 2022 invasion certainly has some complexities, but it's pretty obvious that Russia is in the wrong and has been for years when it comes to Ukraine. Putin's been sowing the seeds of discord for a long time, backing pro-Russian separatists in the region to enable them to annex Ukrainian territory. The fact that a minority of Donbas inhabitants expressed some dissatisfaction or anti-Ukrainian government sentiments before 2014, during a time when the government was clearly influenced by Russian interests and corruption (like the Revolution of Dignity), does not mean complete support for Russia or their orientation. Furthermore, it doesn't mean that the region welcomed Russia's deployment of aggressive occupying forces, as is happening currently. Ukraine being imperfect as a country is besides the point. Russia invaded them and bombed their cities.

I'm familiar with the Russian narrative that horrible Western Ukrainian Banderivtsi are coming to get them and make them speak Ukrainian etc. while Great Mother Russia will give them a paradise. Ideologically most 'pro-Russian' people from Donbas are apolitical. All they care about is being less poor, while not changing anything themselves. Otherwise they'd have left for Moscow a long time ago. And it's stuff like this that leads to huge inconsistency between words and actions, and sometimes parroting Russian narratives without putting any thought into it. I mean, if these Russian speaking people in Donbas are so pro-Russia, why do they flee to "Bandera" regions of Ukraine that they claim to hate so much and are oppressed by? Confront them with this question and you'll get no answers from them... gee I wonder why...

Putin's pretext for war is as follow: If a place has a Russian majority, it belongs to Russia. If a place has a Russian minority, this minority is under threat and must be protected.

Or do you think Putin acted for no reason at all?

Oh, there's plenty of reasons for him to act, and it certainly has nothing to do with any deep concerns for the small Russian-speaking population in Donbas. They were just a means to an end for him.

That region of (Eastern) Ukraine has a lot of oil and gas reserves. Russia doesn't want Ukraine to start supplying Europe. This way they get to claim more resources for themselves. Ukraine has also been advancing its democratic principles and has been forging closer ties with Western democracies. Autocrats like Putin can't let that happen because if Russians start to see a free and prosperous Ukraine, they'll want to have some of that back home too. Lastly, Putin has illusions of grandeur of wanting to restore the old Russian Empire à la Russeky mir (Russian world) which also explains why he has never recognized or accept Ukrainian sovereignty while in power.

I also like how you're still referring to this barbaric invasion as a 'special military operation'. Very telling. I don't blame you though, Russian propaganda does a mighty fine job distorting the facts and making themselves out to be the victims. You've been spoon fed a false narrative, my guy. This is an imperialist war of conquest.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

Yeah, lots of Russian speaking residents of Donbass have died after being forcibly conscripted by Russia. I doubt the survivors think highly of the Kremlin anymore lol.

And no, Russia aren't defending or protecting ethnic Russians in Ukraine. They were too busy launching cruise missiles into apartment blocks and attempting to destroy all the electrical infrastructure so people could freeze to death.

Anyone that looks at Mariupol or Bakhmut (Donetsk Oblast regions) can't say that Russia is there to save anyone. He is bombing the very people he claimed were oppressed and turning cities into rubble.

View attachment 55719

View attachment 55720

Anyways, the situation in Donbas and Luhansk prior to the 2022 invasion certainly has some complexities, but it's pretty obvious that Russia is in the wrong and has been for years when it comes to Ukraine. Putin's been sowing the seeds of discord for a long time, backing pro-Russian separatists in the region to enable them to annex Ukrainian territory. The fact that a minority of Donbas inhabitants expressed some dissatisfaction or anti-Ukrainian government sentiments before 2014, during a time when the government was clearly influenced by Russian interests and corruption (like the Revolution of Dignity), does not mean complete support for Russia or their orientation. Furthermore, it doesn't mean that the region welcomed Russia's deployment of aggressive occupying forces, as is happening currently. Ukraine being imperfect as a country is besides the point. Russia invaded them and bombed their cities.

I'm familiar with the Russian narrative that horrible Western Ukrainian Banderivtsi are coming to get them and make them speak Ukrainian etc. while Great Mother Russia will give them a paradise. Ideologically most 'pro-Russian' people from Donbas are apolitical. All they care about is being less poor, while not changing anything themselves. Otherwise they'd have left for Moscow a long time ago. And it's stuff like this that leads to huge inconsistency between words and actions, and sometimes parroting Russian narratives without putting any thought into it. I mean, if these Russian speaking people in Donbas are so pro-Russia, why do they flee to "Bandera" regions of Ukraine that they claim to hate so much and are oppressed by? Confront them with this question and you'll get no answers from them... gee I wonder why...

Putin's pretext for war is as follow: If a place has a Russian majority, it belongs to Russia. If a place has a Russian minority, this minority is under threat and must be protected.

Oh, there's plenty of reasons for him to act, and it certainly has nothing to do with any deep concerns for the small Russian-speaking population in Donbas. They were just a means to an end for him.

That region of (Eastern) Ukraine has a lot of oil and gas reserves. Russia doesn't want Ukraine to start supplying Europe. This way they get to claim more resources for themselves. Ukraine has also been advancing its democratic principles and has been forging closer ties with Western democracies. Autocrats like Putin can't let that happen because if Russians start to see a free and prosperous Ukraine, they'll want to have some of that back home too. Lastly, Putin has illusions of grandeur of wanting to restore the old Russian Empire à la Russeky mir (Russian world) which also explains why he has never recognized or accept Ukrainian sovereignty while in power.

I also like how you're still referring to this barbaric invasion as a 'special military operation'. Very telling. I don't blame you though, Russian propaganda does a mighty fine job distorting the facts and making themselves out to be the victims. You've been spoon fed a false narrative, my guy. This is an imperialist war of conquest.

 

[ZFire]

I've compiled a list of photographic evidence of atrocities committed. Something tells me we are going to being seeing some people in denial of the atrocities happening inside Ukraine. Akin to something like the holocaust deniers or the Nanjing massacre deniers. We already have one person in this thread embarrassing themself.

WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC CONTENT AND DISTURBING IMAGES THAT DEPICT BODIES, BURNED BODIES, AND MASS GRAVES. IF YOU ARE EASILY DISTURBED OR HAVE A SENSITIVE DISPOSITION, I STRONGLY ADVISE YOU NOT TO OPEN THE SPOILER TAG. IMAGES ARE HIGHLY DISTRESSING. PLEASE EXERCISE CAUTION.

Spoiler: WARNING!!

Bucha massacres

Izium mass graves

There's one image I'm having trouble tracking down. I saw it back in April 2022. It showed a pile of bodies with a girl who could not have been older than 4 or 5 on top of the pile. It was the most disturbing and unsettling image I've ever seen.

 

[Luman]

Ukraine was wrong to not have negotiations with Russia, and Biden has been against this, and peace talks, as welL

Out taxes are supporting it and Biden is going to keep this war going for as long as he is president.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

I've compiled a list of photographic evidence of atrocities committed. Something tells me we are going to being seeing some people in denial of the atrocities happening inside Ukraine. Akin to something like the holocaust deniers or the Nanjing massacre deniers. We already have one person in this thread embarrassing themself.

WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC CONTENT AND DISTURBING IMAGES THAT DEPICT BODIES, BURNED BODIES, AND MASS GRAVES. IF YOU ARE EASILY DISTURBED OR HAVE A SENSITIVE DISPOSITION, I STRONGLY ADVISE YOU NOT TO OPEN THE SPOILER TAG. IMAGES ARE HIGHLY DISTRESSING. PLEASE EXERCISE CAUTION.

Spoiler: WARNING!!

Bucha massacres

View attachment 55740

View attachment 55734

View attachment 55735

View attachment 55753

View attachment 55732

View attachment 55748

View attachment 55746

View attachment 55754

View attachment 55749

View attachment 55737

View attachment 55739

View attachment 55733

View attachment 55736

View attachment 55752

Izium mass graves

View attachment 55727

View attachment 55723

View attachment 55725

View attachment 55731

View attachment 55728

View attachment 55741

View attachment 55742

View attachment 55751

View attachment 55729

View attachment 55730

View attachment 55743

View attachment 55755

View attachment 55756

View attachment 55757

There's one image I'm having trouble tracking down. I saw it back in April 2022. It showed a pile of bodies with a girl who could not have been older than 4 or 5 on top of the pile. It was the most disturbing and unsettling image I've ever seen.

Damn, so what you've proven with this is that war causes casualties? Holy crap, nobody knew that

 

[ZFire]

Damn, so what you've proven with this is that war causes casualties? Holy crap, nobody knew that

Labeling systematic acts of deliberate executions, torture and the burial of civilian bodies as mere casualties is pathetically misleading. Try again.

Or you can quit gargling Putin's nutsack please. You've been exposed.

I have more horrific images for you to dismiss and excuse.

Spoiler: NSFW

 

[Ed209]

Labeling systematic acts of deliberate executions, torture and the burial of civilian bodies as mere casualties is pathetically misleading. Try again.

Or you can quit gargling Putin's nutsack please. You've been exposed.

I have more horrific images for you to dismiss and excuse.

Spoiler: NSFW

View attachment 55758

View attachment 55759

View attachment 55760

There is no point debating people who openly defend and admire that little gremlin-looking motherfucker over in Russia. At this point, only the drooling idiots or conspiracy bros support that c*nt. I see a strong correlation with those supporting Russia also being the very same people who look for the next conspiracy to jerk off over. Many of them still believe that the earth is flat and that we didn't go to the moon, etc.

You cannot argue with such people. Who's more stupid, the idiot or the idiot that argues with the idiot? Or as Mark Twain once said: never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

 

[Luman]

Labeling systematic acts of deliberate executions, torture and the burial of civilian bodies as mere casualties is pathetically misleading.

Quit gargling Putin's nutsack please. You've been exposed.

I have more horrific images for you to dismiss and excuse.

Spoiler: NSFW

View attachment 55758

View attachment 55759

View attachment 55760

If these photos are legitimate, it is highly likely that none of this would have happened if Ukraine had held negotiations with Russia.

There is no point debating people who openly defend and admire that little gremlin-looking motherfucker over in Russia. At this point, only the drooling idiots or conspiracy bros support that c*nt. I see a strong correlation with those supporting Russia also being the very same people who look for the next conspiracy to jerk off over. Many of them still believe that the earth is flat and that we didn't go to the moon, etc.

You cannot argue with such people. Who's more stupid, the idiot or the idiot that argues with the idiot? Or as Mark Twain once said: never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

The important question is whether Joe Biden is doing the correct thing, with regards to Ukraine. I do not believe that he is.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

Labeling systematic acts of deliberate executions, torture and the burial of civilian bodies as mere casualties is pathetically misleading. Try again.

Or you can quit gargling Putin's nutsack please. You've been exposed.

I have more horrific images for you to dismiss and excuse.

Spoiler: NSFW

View attachment 55758

View attachment 55759

View attachment 55760

So, where's the evidence that these professional, studio quality photos of conveniently placed dead bodies isn't Ukrainian propaganda, and that it's the result of torture? Also, how do you know these people have died from the fault of the Russian army?

P. S. Personal attacks and insults aren't going to prove your point better, quite the contrary.

 

[Trafalgar D]

So, where's the evidence that these professional, studio quality photos of conveniently placed dead bodies isn't Ukrainian propaganda, and that it's the result of torture? Also, how do you know these people have died from the fault of the Russian army?

I don't really understand what you are trying to argue here and on the previous pages.

Are you arguing that Russian soldiers don't commit war crimes? Probably not, because that would be quite idiotic in view of all the evidence.

Or is the discussion here about whether Russia is systematically committing war crimes? In this case you guys should discuss the number of cases, definition of "systematically", and at what point it becomes "systematically".

I just read the latest report by the "Independent International Commission of Inquiry in Ukraine" (a United Nations commission) linked by @ZFire.

In regard to torture, on page 11: "both civilians and prisoners of war were tortured. As Russian authorities consolidated control over certain areas, the Commission found that more diverse, but similar methods of torture were used systematically in detention facilities"

In regard to executions, on page 8: "The Commission has documented patterns of wilful killings, unlawful confinement, torture, rape, and unlawful transfers of detainees in the areas that came under the control of Russian authorities in Ukraine."

"In cases of summary executions and torture, perpetrators mostly targeted persons for any form of real or perceived support of Ukrainian armed forces or for any action directed against Russian armed forces."

"Evidence collected shows a widespread pattern of summary executions in areas that Russian armed forces controlled in 17 localities of the Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Kyiv, and Sumy regions, with the highest number in the Kyiv region, including in the town of Bucha. The Commission has confirmed the execution of 65 men, two women, and a 14-year-old boy."

You can also look up page 12 for "Sexual and gender-based violence".

You wrote earlier: "No, that's not solid proof. Do you know how many people get pregnant daily? Not to mention interviews are just more he-said, she-said. Where is the photographic evidence?"

...so you were talking about sexual violence here, and you want photographic evidence of that? You want the whole act – soldiers filming themselves? Pictures of the aftermath? How do you know what a body looks like after sexual violence at gunpoint?

You want the Ukrainian side to upload pictures of the victims? I can play your game - but the face is blurred! Clearly fake and staged. Face is not blurred? She is just an actress, so it`s still fake. No name! OK, now there is a name, but what`s her address? OK, we have now her address as well, but you know what, the photos have "professional, studio quality" (how convenient is that?), therefore, it`s all fake and staged. OK, the "photographic evidence" might be real, but it does not prove that the perpetrator is Russian!

...and the grand finale... "Where's the evidence that these professional, studio quality photos"... "isn't Ukrainian propaganda"?

You can either accept, for example, the expert opinion of the commission ("based on the evidence it has collected, the Commission has concluded that in areas they controlled, some members of Russian armed forces committed the war crime of rape and sexual violence") or continue playing your game by questioning everything ad absurdum.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

I don't really understand what you are trying to argue here and on the previous pages.

Are you arguing that Russian soldiers don't commit war crimes? Probably not, because that would be quite idiotic in view of all the evidence.

Or is the discussion here about whether Russia is systematically committing war crimes? In this case you guys should discuss the number of cases, definition of "systematically", and at what point it becomes "systematically".

I just read the latest report by the "Independent International Commission of Inquiry in Ukraine" (a United Nations commission) linked by @ZFire.

In regard to torture, on page 11: "both civilians and prisoners of war were tortured. As Russian authorities consolidated control over certain areas, the Commission found that more diverse, but similar methods of torture were used systematically in detention facilities"

In regard to executions, on page 8: "The Commission has documented patterns of wilful killings, unlawful confinement, torture, rape, and unlawful transfers of detainees in the areas that came under the control of Russian authorities in Ukraine."

"In cases of summary executions and torture, perpetrators mostly targeted persons for any form of real or perceived support of Ukrainian armed forces or for any action directed against Russian armed forces."

"Evidence collected shows a widespread pattern of summary executions in areas that Russian armed forces controlled in 17 localities of the Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Kyiv, and Sumy regions, with the highest number in the Kyiv region, including in the town of Bucha. The Commission has confirmed the execution of 65 men, two women, and a 14-year-old boy."

You can also look up page 12 for "Sexual and gender-based violence".

You wrote earlier: "No, that's not solid proof. Do you know how many people get pregnant daily? Not to mention interviews are just more he-said, she-said. Where is the photographic evidence?"

...so you were talking about sexual violence here, and you want photographic evidence of that? You want the whole act – soldiers filming themselves? Pictures of the aftermath? How do you know what a body looks like after sexual violence at gunpoint?

You want the Ukrainian side to upload pictures of the victims? I can play your game - but the face is blurred! Clearly fake and staged. Face is not blurred? She is just an actress, so it`s still fake. No name! OK, now there is a name, but what`s her address? OK, we have now her address as well, but you know what, the photos have "professional, studio quality" (how convenient is that?), therefore, it`s all fake and staged. OK, the "photographic evidence" might be real, but it does not prove that the perpetrator is Russian!

...and the grand finale... "Where's the evidence that these professional, studio quality photos"... "isn't Ukrainian propaganda"?

You can either accept, for example, the expert opinion of the commission ("based on the evidence it has collected, the Commission has concluded that in areas they controlled, some members of Russian armed forces committed the war crime of rape and sexual violence") or continue playing your game by questioning everything ad absurdum.

So, as I understand, you're pretty much saying that we should just take their word for it? You are very obviously unbelievable biased against Russia, throwing all rational thought out the window.

of all the evidence.

What evidence? From what I understand, most of this "evidence" is from eyewitness reports and interviews. That's hardly evidence.

Are you arguing that Russian soldiers don't commit war crimes

I'm arguing that casualties happen during wars.

Where were all you keyboard warriors when the US was "committing war crimes" all over the globe for many decades? Or is everything justified just because it fits the western agenda?

 

[gameover]

This phrase alone shows your toxic bias against Russians. Do you have any idea what insane racial segregation and Bandera worship was happening in Donbas and Luhansk for decades before the SMO? How Ukrainian nationalists would beat up Russian citizens in the street for not knowing the Ukrainian National anthem by heart? Or do you think Putin acted for no reason at all? I doubt you were very interested in what was happening there for many years before it was brought to the spotlight of western media because "Russia Bad".

Both Russians and Ukrainians can be savages, there are no good guys in this conflict. But there is the issue of the western audience's ignorance of the history behind Ukraine as a nation, fueled by media propaganda (there is no war without propaganda, it is normal, unfortunately).

Ukraine as a state and many Ukrainians are revering certified Nazi murderers like Bandera as their founding fathers and heroes (Nazi because they pleaded allegiance to Hitler). It is very much of a problem. One needs just to look up the genocide of Polish and Jewish civilians in 1940s perpetrated by Ukrainian Insurgent Army (or UPA). Ukraine still denies or downplays their responsibility for it. Imagine Germany still being proud of Hitler and denying existence of concentration camps, or at least downplaying the numbers of victims or even justifying them.

 

[Trafalgar D]

So, as I understand, you're pretty much saying that we should just take their word for it?

I am saying that in my opinion the UN commission is one of the "best" sources we have today. Do you have a "more trustworthy" alternative? Please share it with me, I will gladly read it. I'd hate to continue to rely on this biased UN commission. But we both know you have nothing.

Also I am saying that I am not an expert in assessing "photographic evidence" of sexual violence. Therefore, yes, in this case I have to take their "word" for it.

You asked to see "photographic evidence". Unlike you, I cannot tell if a person was raped at gunpoint just by looking at some random pictures. You must have judged thousands of photos. What do you usually look for in those pictures? And what interests me the most - how can you tell the nationality of the perpetrator?

I am being sarcastic because once one arbitrarily decides that Russian soldiers don't commit (sexual) violence, there is no kind of photographic evidence that will change your mind as long as you are gonna question it ad absurdum. I see you are willing to go there because you write things like "where's the evidence that these professional, studio quality photos of conveniently placed dead bodies isn't Ukrainian propaganda" and then you have the audacity to talk about "throwing all rational thought out the window".

What evidence?

I meant videotaped or photographed war crimes in general. Now you guys were discussing rape. Fortunately no such video has been published. The UN commission wrote "based on the evidence it has collected", so I assume it's more than "eyewitness reports and interviews.", but feel free to correct me if i am wrong.

For example, on page 12: " The evidence collected shows that sexual violence amounting to torture, and the threat of such, have been important aspects of the torture exercised by Russian authorities, with methods including rape, electric shocks on genitals, traction on the penis using a rope, and emasculation. The Commission also analysed signs of such acts on bodies of deceased victims."

I'm arguing that casualties happen during wars.

Yes, including "(sexual) violence". Then why did you deny this violence earlier unless there is "photographic evidence"of, for example, Olha presented to you. It's a "part" of war. Your argument is that it happens, but not "systematically". You should be asking for evidence that it happens "systematically", and then we would have to discuss the definition of "systematically".

You are very obviously unbelievable biased against Russia
Where were all you keyboard warriors when the US was "committing war crimes"

That is insanely hilarious because you know nothing about me (well except that I have tinnitus) and yet you are full of assumptions.

And YES! Let's bash the US, just make a different thread please.

 

[dan]

Russia doesn't want Ukraine to start supplying Europe. This way they get to claim more resources for themselves.

BINGO!!! Russia has interest in Ukraine's resources. Just like we have interest in the Middle East oil.

Odessa was established in 1794 by the Empress RUSSIAN Catherine the Great on land conquered from the Ottoman Empire on the site of the Black Sea fortress town of Khadzhibei. So Ukraine should give back Odessa region to Turkey.

OK, how about this -- USA returns Alaska to Russia and Russia gives back Crimea to Ukraine and Ukraine gives back Odessa to Turkey.

 

[ZFire]

I see a strong correlation with those supporting Russia also being the very same people who look for the next conspiracy to jerk off over.

Hey look, @Ed209. You were right:

So, where's the evidence that these professional, studio quality photos of conveniently placed dead bodies isn't Ukrainian propaganda

Or is the discussion here about whether Russia is systematically committing war crimes? In this case you guys should discuss the number of cases, definition of "systematically", and at what point it becomes "systematically".

Absolutely. Systematically means that a pattern or practice is being carried out in a deliberate, organized, and widespread manner.

So in the context of war crimes, systematically typically means that during armed conflicts, there is a deliberate and structured pattern of carrying out actions that go against international humanitarian laws and the customs of war. Actions like targeting civilians, torture, sexual violence, forced displacement, genocide are some examples. These acts are not random isolated incidents but are part of a coordinated and widespread pattern of behavior within armed forces, military, or government. These repeated occurrences aimed at achieving specific objectives.

So when I look at the widespread and indiscriminate attacks on civilians happening in Ukraine, coupled with the discovery of hundreds of bodies (including POWs) in mass graves, displaying signs of lacerations, bruisings, abrasions, etc, no one's going to convince me otherwise that these are isolated incidents or the result of individual misconduct. The evidence is telling us there's a coordinated effort to torture, kill and subsequently dispose of the bodies. A serious violation of humanitarian law.

This isn't anything new with Russia actually. They have a long history of committing atrocities deliberately (even against its own people) dating all the way back to World War 2.

What evidence? From what I understand, most of this "evidence" is from eyewitness reports and interviews. That's hardly evidence.

Corroborated by photographs, video surveillance (CCTV footage), satellite imagery, drones and intercepted radio transmissions + calls between Russians military units. You just aren't informed. Stop pretending.

So, as I understand, you're pretty much saying that we should just take their word for it?

Ah but of course, because clearly you're the ultimate source of wisdom, outsmarting all those experts like forensic professionals, local authorities, medical examiners, the international criminal court, human rights organizations, UN's special investigative teams, and war journalists from around the world. Who needs their expertise when we have you right? Some pro-Russia random hiding behind a keyboard.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

Ah but of course, because clearly you're the ultimate source of wisdom, outsmarting all those experts like forensic professionals, local authorities, medical examiners, the international criminal court, human rights organizations, UN's special investigative teams, and war journalists from around the world. Who needs their expertise when we have you right?

That's absolutely correct! Thanks for the compliment

 

[Ed209]

So, as I understand, you're pretty much saying that we should just take their word for it? You are very obviously unbelievable biased against Russ

You are using reductive reasoning whilst providing no evidence whatsoever for your own belief that Russia is acting with good intentions. @ZFire has given considered thought to his position, and you have responded with very few words or facts of your own. What is it that you know that convinces you that Russia is not the problem?

I could use your own argument against you. How do you know that your own beliefs are legitimate and not Russian propaganda? If we want to get real for a moment, then we have to acknowledge that nobody knows the truth other than the people who are witnessing what's happening firsthand. However, a person can deduce a fair amount from what is known. You don't have to have been to Jamaica, for example, to have an idea of what it looks like and what the weather is like there. In the modern era, we have shared information that goes far beyond what our ancestors had access to, and sometimes, you just have to go with what the overwhelming amount of evidence is suggesting.

In the case of this conflict, there are far too many independently verified reports to outright deny that these atrocities have taken place. The alternative is that there is a wide-scale conspiracy that is covering up the truth which is incredibly far-fetched in this day and age with the amount of nations that are involved, and witness reports. Occam's razor would push us to conclude that Russia is the problem.

We can debate this matter all we want, but the fact still remains that Russia invaded a sovereign nation for no reason at all. This in and of itself is more than enough to conclude that they are the aggressors and a fucking disgrace, or do you believe that they didn't invade and that is also Ukrainian propaganda? You can't pick and choose what you want to believe. I'm sure the Ukrainians are not all saints, but what nation is perfect?

 

[JayJay1]

I am so surprised to see so many here that kiss Putin's ass. Maybe y'all should move to Russia if you love that country so much. Reading some of the Russian propaganda here is so annoying.

Should rename this thread to "United States Proxy War."

Let me correct you Mr. Scott. We should rename this thread to "Russian Invasion of Ukraine".

If you don't like it here in this country, you could move to Russia.

At the expense of 500,000 dead and injured Ukes.

Has Russia taken over Kyiv yet? Nope. They will have to murder every single Ukrainian for that to happen. Ukrainians will never give up until Russia leaves. Russia's military will collapse before that happens as long as we support Ukraine. Crimea will return to Ukraine one day.

There's no benefit for us withdrawing support for Ukraine. Russia is the same country that interferes in our elections. Russia must be weakened at the very least if Ukraine does lose but I have faith that Ukraine will win. It's not like we are drafting our own people to Ukraine as the Ukrainians themselves are doing the job just fine so I don't know why y'all are so against us sending weapons to Ukraine.

Yep, money laundering scheme for the MIC and the politicians.

How much is Putin paying you to say that?

This whole war could have been avoided if Biden (+ the West) had taken a reality check at the outset but sadly, he does not know how to play chess.

Russia cannot be trusted with any "peace agreement". I wonder why you are blaming Biden for this and not Putin. I think I may know why because I spent some time in England where you are from and I met so many with heavy anti-American bias. Some were so anti-American that they would support Russia. I saw you posted something on your profile about America's food safety having "very very very low standards". Let me guess, you are one of those people I met in England that thinks America needs to collapse because it's the worst country ever and how we are the source for all of the world's problems? Don't worry, you will grow and realize how much you need us, especially if Russia wins in Ukraine.

Don't forget about what y'all did to the Catholics in Northern Ireland because it was similar to what the Russians are doing to Ukrainians. Don't forget about the American citizens who funded the IRA. Your country is lucky to still have Northern Ireland because our government didn't help free Northern Ireland but at least we are leading the support for Ukraine's fight for freedom. Northern Ireland would have gained their freedom from British rule if we did the same thing and Ireland would be fully united. Maybe you just hate Biden because of his Irish roots. This year Biden told you you guys to maintain peace in Northern Ireland when he visited Ireland so I hope y'all are listening to his advice.

Hitler wanted world domination and declared war on the U.S. shortly after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor so there is no comparison to Hitler and Putin. Another difference is the millions of people killed in the German concentration camps. I think the American people want a secure southern border prioritized if we have to support a senseless war with no end in site, especially with our enormous federal deficit.

How about you stop defending Russia? Putin is a Hitler wannabe. I don't see any people of color in Russia. All I see are white people in his country. A white ethnostate is what Hitler dreamt of and I never see Putler taking in any immigrants in his country. And what makes you think he won't declare war on the U.S like Hitler did?

Imagine, Russia causes a Red Revolution in Mexico, starts pumping heavy weapons/missiles into Mexico while training the Mexican military in Russian War tactics and signs a strategic war alliance with them, sending Russian agents to Mexico. The missiles would be pointed at standby in you country's direction. Would your country just sit idle and watch? Really???

Have we invaded and stolen Mexico's land like Russia is doing in Ukraine yet? No. I don't believe we have any future plans for that either. If Russians ruled America, they would have taken all of Mexico and genocide the population to replace it with white people. We are way more benevolent than Russia.

I wonder why you defend Russia and look down on America? Do you hope Russia normalizes erasing the Ukrainian language to the international community? So your country, Canada, could get away without receiving criticism by doing the same thing in Quebec and erase the French language there?

Also, what you've listed sounds exactly what the US has been doing for half a century, for example in Vietnam, Guantanamo Bay, etc.

What do you have against Israel? They are our most loyal ally in the Middle East. Do you have an anti-Semitic bias? At least they can build a democracy unlike Palestinians and Russians.

It's Europeans who are losing here. We are paying crazy taxes just to maintain this nonsense of sending at least 20 billion euros per year to Ukraine, plus weapons, plus other "aid". On top of that Europeans are paying crazy prices for oil, gas and energy while the US is profiteering from the situation.

Europe is actually buying Russian oil and gas resold by third parties. It's the most stupid attitude ever.

I am sick of spending my whole life always paying for someone else's problem. My taxes are over 50%, and many people, like me, are thinking enough is enough.

People in Europe can no longer just work and be left alone. Politicians come to steal directly from our salaries to "fund" (and steal on) their latest nonsense.

How about have some patience and respect for the Ukrainians that are sacrificing their lives for you so you don't have to fight the Russians yourself. If Russia isn't stopped, they will take over the rest of Europe.

Looks like you have some anti-American bias because you spoke about how the US is benefitting the most from this war whilst conveniently ignoring what Russia is doing to Ukraine. Y'all in Europe can be so ungrateful like how you guys are not willing to acknowledge that we beat the Germans to save your asses in World War 2. You are lucky that you aren't speaking German today because of us.

Today we are the country that sends the most aid and weapons to Ukraine. You won't be speaking Russian in the future thanks to us. You're welcome. I have a feeling you are just jealous of our country and that you wish you could live here, hence your negativity towards us.

Ukraine was wrong to not have negotiations with Russia, and Biden has been against this, and peace talks, as welL

Out taxes are supporting it and Biden is going to keep this war going for as long as he is president.

I get that you support Drumpf but I'm sorry he's not becoming President again for your own good. A man that tries to overthrow our democracy deserves to be in jail. He also praised Putin and Xi Jinping on camera a few months ago. Him and Elon Musk are just assets to Russia. Both are traitors.

Both Russians and Ukrainians can be savages, there are no good guys in this conflict. But there is the issue of the western audience's ignorance of the history behind Ukraine as a nation, fueled by media propaganda (there is no war without propaganda, it is normal, unfortunately).

Ukraine as a state and many Ukrainians are revering certified Nazi murderers like Bandera as their founding fathers and heroes (Nazi because they pleaded allegiance to Hitler). It is very much of a problem. One needs just to look up the genocide of Polish and Jewish civilians in 1940s perpetrated by Ukrainian Insurgent Army (or UPA). Ukraine still denies or downplays their responsibility for it. Imagine Germany still being proud of Hitler and denying existence of concentration camps, or at least downplaying the numbers of victims or even justifying them.

Why are you bringing this up? Are you trying to dissuade people from supporting Ukraine? How about you realize Putin isn't that much different to Hitler in what he's doing. Ukraine isn't perfect but America isn't either. Our founding fathers owned slaves but we still ended slavery later and the blacks are now free, living good lives compared to other countries. We improve our country unlike Russians who can't improve and be civilized today with what they are supporting in Ukraine and in their own country.

Where were all you keyboard warriors when the US was "committing war crimes" all over the globe for many decades? Or is everything justified just because it fits the western agenda?

I admit we did some mistakes in the past but overall our positives outweigh the mistakes so I would say we have been a powerful force for good. The world would be more unstable and uncivilized if we never intervened.

Do you want to know how important it is for us to win this war in Ukraine? You sound uninformed and you would be changing your mind if you took this more seriously. I will explain it in a way that's easy for you to understand.

Many people are saying China and India will rule the world in the future and today they won't condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine. If you think we are bad, then imagine them. They have a bigger potential towards violence than us. They are just waiting for us to become weaker before they team up with Russia so they can start more wars and colonize other countries together.

I don't trust countries like Brazil either who created a "peace plan" that benefits Russia and they parrot Russian and Chinese propaganda. The EU not so long ago had a summit with Latin American countries and the Europeans were trying to rally support for Ukraine. According to an EU diplomat, the Latin Americans "deleted everything about Ukraine" and the same Latinos came back with a counter proposal demanding colonial reparations for slavery which is very weird because today the United States aren't asking for reparations for slavery from Britain. The Latinos also protested against Zelenskyy's invitation and they called Ukraine a "European problem" which is so funny coming from them. It looks like Russia is succeeding at promoting anti-Western propaganda among the Latino's. Here are the links about Latin America being tricked by Russian propaganda:

White House Says Brazilian Leader's Comments Parrot Russian, Chinese Propaganda

LEAK: Latin American countries push back on Ukraine, EU agenda ahead of joint summit

The Africans are turning more anti-West and their recent coups show this with their new pro-Russian governments wanting to welcome Putin into their country. I was surprised to speak to so many Africans online that support Russia and most are still crying about Western colonialism like little babies instead of trying to develop their countries. They support Russia because they are against the West. The Africans I spoke to sounded very emotional and want payback against the West for colonialism. They refuse to drop their bias no matter how hard I tried to convince them. They have problems with their listening skills, are unable to think critically and they have anger issues so I blocked them all. Indians are worse with their love for Russia. I thought Indians were smart.

China has made Saudi Arabia normalize relations with Iran who are allies with Russia. Saudi Arabia have just invited Syria back into the Arab League and Syria is the same country that supports Putin's invasion of Ukraine. It looks like the Islamic countries are preparing to unite and get revenge on us for our mistakes in the Middle East like the Iraq war. They will be backed by Russia and China. Do you want something like 9/11 to happen to us again?

A pro-Russia and anti-American party is predicted to win the election in Slovakia this month. In Germany a pro-Russian and anti-American party called the AFD has rapidly risen to be the second most popular party since Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Both of these parties vow to stop sending aid and weapons to Ukraine. We can't let Germany vote in a pro-Russian party as they are the biggest and most influential country in the EU. If the AFD wins in Germany, this could create a domino effect in Europe where pro-Russian and anti-American parties rule the continent. In France, Le Pen is already very popular and she has ties to Putin. She could actually win the next French election in 2027.

We are going to get colonized by the world if we don't stop Russia where their actions in Ukraine is emboldening a global anti-American movement. This is a very dangerous and uncivilized world that will try to destroy us. We will have to send more weapons to Ukraine if those pro-Russian parties win in Slovakia and Germany to make up for the losses in aid to Ukraine. Russia could collapse instantly if China was willing to cooperate with us against Russia but they will never do that so we need to do something about getting China under control along with Iran. European governments turning more Pro-Russian doesn't make our job easier.

If Ukraine wins, so does America and democracy. I question your loyalty here with how much you are against supporting Ukraine. I think you just want democracy to fall and you probably cheered for the January 6th insurrection. I wonder if you plan on moving back to Russia because you don't seem to be taking Putin's war against us very seriously. One day you are going to grow and regret all of this. Don't worry buddy, you will figure it out.

 

[Luman]

In essence, Biden is supporting a business partner of his, Ukraine, that refuses to negotiate with Russia. We are being compelled by this administration to sacrifice 100s of billions of dollars for them, much of which will be profits for the military-industrial complex.

Europe was responsible for two world wars in the 20th century, which left 105 million people dead, and now we're flirting with another one that could be far worse.

Russia does not want nuclear missiles from NATO countries 500 miles from Moscow, and I do not blame them. They never did anything to us, yet the Biden administration is waging a war by proxy against them. I do not buy the claim that they will take over Western Civilization if they acquire parts of Ukraine - even if they tried, they would fail.

We need to stop supporting this death and bloodshed, as soon as possible.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

They will have to murder every single Ukrainian for that to happen.

And they will, unless Zelenskiy gets off his high horse. Do you really think that's a good thing?

Crimea will return to Ukraine one day

I absolutely without a doubt guarantee you this won't happen. Even if Ukraine were to somehow get close to the Crimea, with their dwindling numbers and fading support from the West, they'll be nuked to oblivion before this will happen, and the US won't do a damn thing about it.

I would say we have been a powerful force for good. The world would be more unstable and uncivilized if we never intervened

Oh my God the bias lmao. Yes, the US murdering tens of thousands for Oil is good lol.

The Africans I spoke to sounded very emotional and want payback against the West for colonialism. They refuse to drop their bias no matter how hard I tried to convince them

So they don't have the right to be bitter about that? Are you serious?

we beat the Germans to save your asses in World War 2.

The Russians Beat the Germans lmao. Look at a casualty chart. The US comes nowhere near the Russian and German deaths chart. Read some history, geez.

The Latinos also protested against Zelenskyy's invitation and they called Ukraine a "European problem" which is so funny coming from them. It looks like Russia is succeeding at promoting anti-Western propaganda among the Latino's. Here are the links about Latin America being tricked by Russian propaganda

Maybe it's because they're smart enough to realize that not every country in the world should agree with the US agenda, and that Zelenskiy is extending this war & deaths, refusing peace negotiations?

f Ukraine wins, so does America and democracy. I question your loyalty here with how much you are against supporting Ukraine. I think you just want democracy to fall and you probably cheered for the January 6th insurrection. I wonder if you plan on moving back to Russia because you don't seem to be taking Putin's war against us very seriously. One day you are going to grow and regret all of this. Don't worry buddy, you will figure it out

I already moved back, bud, and have been here for the past 2 months. The only thing I'm going to regret is not being more outspoken when this whole thing started & paying $4,000 a month for a studio apartment in a city with piss & shit & homeless people & drug addicts on the street, with certain individuals breaking into cars every 5 minutes, nonexistent Medicare; yet the main focus should be the war in Ukraine, right? The US has massive issues it needs to solve, Ukraine shouldn't even be in the list of top 10.

I love the US, it's my home country. The politicians in power need to prioritize the US people, not profiting off foreign conflicts. I can't wait for a world where the US & Russia become friends, it really would be a better world.

Russia will never, ever even attempt to invade any NATO country. There is absolutely no reason to, and Putin understands he'll be steamrolled if he does. People who even remotely think this is a possibility are kind of dumb.

 

[Stuart-T]

Wow @JayJay1, where did you come from?

The fact that the USA have lousy food regs, and poor FDA regs for medical treatments meaning the rubbish Lenire has been approved, and a minimum wage of $7.25 in many states (in the UK it is 11 GBP), plus frankly a ton of issues - and I talk about these - does not mean I do not consider the USA a valuable ally. It does not mean I am anti-USA.

 

[dan]

I have faith that Ukraine will win.

We cannot beat Russia without destroying half of USA, because they have long range nukes. Is that what you want?

Ukraine was never a part of NATO. Sending weapons to Ukraine is just for analysis of Russian armed forces.

I am sure the Pentagon is crunching numbers 24/7.

 

[JayJay1]

I do not buy the claim that they will take over Western Civilization if they acquire parts of Ukraine - even if they tried, they would fail.

You are either underestimating Russia or you support Putin. The Pro-Kremlin party in Slovakia named Smer (English name is Direction - Social Democracy) is almost certain to win their election this month. They will threaten European unity as they promised to stop sending weapons to Ukraine. If AFD wins in Germany and more European countries start being allies with Russia, they could one day wage war against more loyal U.S allies like Britain or worse, attack the United States.

And they will, unless Zelenskiy gets off his high horse. Do you really think that's a good thing?

Russia must be stopped. If we don't stop them, they will start more wars. As long as the Ukrainian men are choosing to fight, let them fight the Russians.

the US won't do a damn thing about it.

And the Russians wouldn't have done a damn thing if we had troops in Ukraine before the war started. They are lucky that we don't have a draft because they would have quickly regretted their decisions in Ukraine. They are struggling with just us sending weapons to Ukraine.

So they don't have the right to be bitter about that? Are you serious?

They have a right to whine about it for all I care. It just shouldn't be an excuse for them to do business with Russia. Russia interferes in our elections and takes advantage of our country's political polarization. If Africa turns more anti-American due to Russia's growing influence, they could collaborate with Russia at worsening our country's political divisions.

Have you been paying attention in the past few years and noticed there has been more black separatist militias such as the NFAC in 2020? Black nationalism and black separatist movements were most popular during segregation but that ended, so there's no reason for it to grow again. These people want to split up the U.S. What makes you think a more pro-Russian Africa won't start targeting African-Americans with anti-American propaganda? There's already too many Russians in Germany parroting Putin's narrative. Russia is also winning with their propaganda among people of color when they unfairly paint all Ukrainians as Neo-Nazi's and dissuade them from supporting Ukraine. We have to do something to stop Russian propaganda from spreading any further, otherwise we will have a civil war in the US between the blacks and whites.

Maybe it's because they're smart enough to realize that not every country in the world should agree with the US agenda, and that Zelenskiy is extending this war & deaths, refusing peace negotiations?

Let's see how smart they are after Russia invades their countries in the future. We will see them begging for our help like how we are helping Ukraine. The Ukrainians at least appreciate us unlike those rude people.

I already moved back, bud, and have been here for the past 2 months.

Enjoy it while it lasts. You will be crawling back to us after Russia's economy collapses. Let's see how long Russia survives under our sanctions. Let's see what a dump Russia will turn into soon.

The only thing I'm going to regret is not being more outspoken when this whole thing started & paying $4,000 a month for a studio apartment in a city with piss & shit & homeless people & drug addicts on the street, with certain individuals breaking into cars every 5 minutes, nonexistent Medicare; yet the main focus should be the war in Ukraine, right? The US has massive issues it needs to solve, Ukraine shouldn't even be in the list of top 10.

Are people getting shot to death by Russians in the US? No.

I love the US, it's my home country. The politicians in power need to prioritize the US people, not profiting off foreign conflicts. I can't wait for a world where the US & Russia become friends, it really would be a better world.

You cannot negotiate with Putin. Putin must go and Russian people must change before we become "friends". The US and Russia cannot be friends until Russia is willing to change their barbaric ways.

Russia will never, ever even attempt to invade any NATO country. There is absolutely no reason to, and Putin understands he'll be steamrolled if he does. People who even remotely think this is a possibility are kind of dumb.

You seem to trust that megalomaniac Putin too much.

The fact that the USA have lousy food regs, and poor FDA regs for medical treatments meaning the rubbish Lenire has been approved, and a minimum wage of $7.25 in many states (in the UK it is 11 GBP), plus frankly a ton of issues - and I talk about these - does not mean I do not consider the USA a valuable ally. It does not mean I am anti-USA.

Whatever you say, mate.

We cannot beat Russia without destroying half of USA, because they have long range nukes. Is that what you want?

Nice try at dissuading others from supporting Ukraine .

Ukraine was never a part of NATO. Sending weapons to Ukraine is just for analysis of Russian armed forces.

I am sure the Pentagon is crunching numbers 24/7.

Russia wouldn't have touched Ukraine if they were a NATO member.

 

[Juan]

How about have some patience and respect for the Ukrainians that are sacrificing their lives for you so you don't have to fight the Russians yourself. If Russia isn't stopped, they will take over the rest of Europe.

Looks like you have some anti-American bias because you spoke about how the US is benefitting the most from this war whilst conveniently ignoring what Russia is doing to Ukraine. Y'all in Europe can be so ungrateful like how you guys are not willing to acknowledge that we beat the Germans to save your asses in World War 2. You are lucky that you aren't speaking German today because of us.

Today we are the country that sends the most aid and weapons to Ukraine. You won't be speaking Russian in the future thanks to us. You're welcome. I have a feeling you are just jealous of our country and that you wish you could live here, hence your negativity towards us.

I think the EU should look after itself and mind its own business and do what's best for Europeans. And for us the best option is embracing Chinese Tech and Chinese EV and purchasing Russian oil and gas.

However, the Lagarde and Von der Leyen pair are ruining the EU. Von der Leyen is flooding Europe with illegal immigration and Lagarde is doing everything in her hand to destroy the Euro and make it lose purchasing power vis a vis the USD.

And yes, the country most benefited from this war is the United States of American, that is profiteering selling expensive oil and gas to Europe.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

njoy it while it lasts. You will be crawling back to us after Russia's economy collapses. Let's see how long Russia survives under our sanctions. Let's see what a dump Russia will turn into soon

Actually my business benefits from the current economic situation, lol. It's almost impossible to do business in the USA with soaring prices and taxes on everything. I enjoy living HERE, Russia is doing just fine, despite being shunned by all the western world. EU still buys Russian oil, just resold by China/India. Western businesses are still booming here under other names and proxies. Russia isn't going to "collapse", don't worry.

Are people getting shot to death by Russians in the US? No

No, they're getting shot to death by:

1) their own police force for no reason
2) each other
3) psychopaths murdering children in schools

You cannot negotiate with Putin

Well, he's been asking for negotiations and being denied every time by Zelenskiy, despite his population dying

Let's see how smart they are after Russia invades their countries in the future

Do you really think that's going to happen? Lmao. There's no reason to invade a country if they are fully cooperative with you.

And the Russians wouldn't have done a damn thing if we had troops in Ukraine before the war started. They are lucky that we don't have a draft because they would have quickly regretted their decisions in Ukraine. They are struggling with just us sending weapons to Ukraine

Ukraine is an insanely corrupt country, there's no way it would have been accepted to NATO, not even going to speak about EU. Russia isn't struggling with anything at the moment. Maybe read some unbiased news articles other than BS "Russia is using world war 2 weapons" every week.

 

[Jammer]

And yes, the country most benefited from this war is the United States of American, that is profiteering selling expensive oil and gas to Europe.

I'm still waiting for my oil check to arrive.

 

[dan]

Russia wouldn't have touched Ukraine if they were a NATO member.

So why didn't we make Ukraine a NATO member right about when crazy psycho began amassing troops on Ukraine's border?

 

[Ed209]

Maybe read some unbiased news articles other than BS "Russia is using world war 2 weapons" every week.

Every source is biased unless you are on the ground viewing what's happening first-hand with your own eyes.

Please post your unbiased sources so everyone can see what's really going on.

 

[Juan]

I'm still waiting for my oil check to arrive.

I am afraid the oil companies will not share it with you.

Today Von der Leyen and Meloni are going to Lampedusa in Italy to witness the invasion of Europe, with constant waves of illegal immigration that is fostered and tolerated by EU institution, which then use the money of European taxpayers to pay for someone else's problem... as always.

EU politics is just nonsense... the EU is destroying itself.

 

[Jammer]

I am afraid the oil companies will not share it with you.

Today Von der Leyen and Meloni are going to Lampedusa in Italy to witness the invasion of Europe, with constant waves of illegal immigration that is fostered and tolerated by EU institution, which then use the money of European taxpayers to pay for someone else's problem... as always.

EU politics is just nonsense... the EU is destroying itself.

But I thought you said the US was selling the oil?