2020 US Presidential Election

[FGG]

Civilians... as in innocent? You just never hear of that happening here. Our Police don't carry guns as a rule, and if they do shoot someone it's HUGE news, and generally because the person has already started stabbing/a shoot out so the use of a gun in response makes sense to the public.

Looks like about 4 civilians are shot a year according to the below link. That's more than I thought. Link also mentions America.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/319246/police-fatal-shootings-england-wales/

It's not up to the police to dispense justice that's the job of the courts. That's why killing people already restrained or in the back is a huge deal that *everyone* should be disgusted with. Cops are not supposed to enact punishment on the spot only bring in suspects.

But because a lot of the American public don't understand this, I think the movement would be even bigger if it focused on people without a criminal history (Breonna Taylor, Charles Kinsey, etc).

 

[Tanni]

I think the movement would be even bigger if it focused on people without a criminal history (Breonna Taylor, Charles Kinsey, etc).

Or maybe if it focused on some white victims too? Presumably this issue affects white Americans as well as African Americans... although disproportionately African Americans as I understand it.

 

[Carlos1]

I love this forum. It's helped me immensely.

Some of these responses in this thread are particularly tough for me... just brings me back to some dark times in my life. I hope and pray for those in harm's way stay safe.

God Bless

 

[FGG]

Or maybe if it focused on some white victims too? Presumably this issue affects white Americans as well as African Americans... although disproportionately African Americans as I understand it.

I think the problem is then it becomes a bit like "all lives matter" which is a little akin to saying "prostate cancer matters too" at a breast cancer rally. I think the focus (for now) needs to be on police brutality disproportionately affecting black people.

 

[Lane]

Clinton ran a crappy campaign. She just took it for granted she would win and underestimated Trump's base and didn't even campaign in important swing states like Wisconsin.

I grew up in rural Wisconsin, which Trump won by about 22K votes. Apparently, 250K Wisconsin voters who went for Obama never bothered to show up to vote for Clinton in 2016. One of their major complaints was she never even came to Wisconsin to ask for their votes. -- Another factor was the successful voter suppression efforts led by the Republican controlled state government. BTW, Jill Stein got over 30K votes in Wisconsin, another politician who's a little to chummy with Putin for my own comfort.

Presumably this issue affects white Americans as well

Well, no, and that's the problem. Generally speaking, there's one set of rules for caucasian people in the U.S., and another set of rules for people of color. It's very seldom you hear a story where a white person has been pulled over for a minor traffic violation, and then ends up being killed for no good reason.

People of color are constantly harrassed way, way more than Caucasian people, in so many ways. Whether that colored person is driving, walking, playing in a park, sleeping in bed (Breonna Taylor), "situations" that arise (such as a broken tailight) that should be handled in a relatively low-key manner way too often get escalated by the police, which then often ends up in fatalities.

The same holds true for what happens in our criminal justice system. A drug offense by a person of color can result in decades of incarceration, while a caucasian person gets the equivalent of a slap on the wrist. And then there's the other major injustices which are designed to keep colored people "in their place". There's horrible discrimination in housing, education, employment, voting, etc. Racism and discrimination is burned deep in the U.S. culture.

We had BLM protests here -- it was all very civilized and only lasted a couple of weeks. ...... Seems like that's not the case in the US. Is it really that bad? Sounds like it's not about BLM anymore, but just an excuse for people to fight each other. Is that because of the left/right divide, or just general unrest?

Here's my take: Because of the institutionalized racism and discrimination against people of color, it's really bad, and has been so for centuries. White nationalists have no problem with this kind of history, and seem to feel threatened when people of color demand justice for themselves, their families, and their race.

If you watch the BLM protests and demonstrations closely, there's almost always some kind of racist and white nationalist outside groups with their military style assault weapons in the midst of things. They're the ones who love conflict, and go looking for it. And these are the type of low-lifers that Trump and Trumpism cater to. It's really a pretty despicable situation.

 

[Lane]

Given how badly Trump has mismanaged the coronavirus pandemic (and so many other things), it seems worthwhile to consider how he would manage the growing problem of nuclear waste storage (clues in article below). It's just shocking to see how little he pauses to think about the ramifications of policies that effect the environment and the planet long-term. His mantra seems to be, "Go fossil fuels and pollution, to hell with the environment."

The Crushing Cost Of Nuclear Waste Is Weighing On Taxpayers

"The Trump administration, for its part, has made efforts to combat the rising prices of nuclear waste storage--albeit extremely controversial ones. Just this month, "in a move that will roll back safety standards that have been observed for decades" says not-for-profit news organization Truthout... While this may be a quick fix for the massive amounts of money flowing out of taxpayer pockets and into the nuclear energy industry, it's certainly not a sustainable solution for what could easily become a national health crisis if mismanaged."​

 

[Lane]

If you watch the BLM protests and demonstrations closely, there's almost always some kind of racist and white nationalist outside groups with their military style assault weapons in the midst of things.

I used to live in Kenosha, and so this story holds a certain saliency for me...

Kenosha Shooting: Video Shows Suspected Gunman Kyle Rittenhouse Being Allowed To Leave Scene

KENOSHA, Wis. (CBS) — The violence that erupted in Kenosha and ended up leaving two people dead and a third injured overnight Tuesday into Wednesday unfolded on social media.

CBS 2's Chris Tye pieced together dozens of eyewitness videos. Stitch together those videos of accused murder suspect Kyle Rittenhouse, 17, of Antioch, and a narrative emerges.

The shooting took place around 11:45 p.m. Tuesday near 63rd Street and Sheridan Road in Kenosha, amid a third night of unrest following the police shooting of 29-year-old Jacob Blake.

Police not only didn't arrest Rittenhouse at the scene, but at the start of the night they thanked an armed group who had come out – and at the end of the night, video shows Rittenhouse was able to walk right out of the Kenosha hot zone.

"We appreciate you guys, we really do," a police officer is heard saying on video.​

 

[FGG]

I love this forum. It's helped me immensely.

Some of these responses in this thread are particularly tough for me... just brings me back to some dark times in my life. I hope and pray for those in harm's way stay safe.

God Bless

I'm sorry if my answers added stress to you (I encourage / support anyone putting me on ignore if I contribute to bad feelings in their life).

I know my posted cartoon upset you but in full disclosure I chose to react with humor because the labelling of black people and liberals as "Marxists" upset me even more than it should for a more personal reason. The love of my life (who died 20 years ago) was 1/4 Jewish and his grandmother was from Austria and the only survivor in her whole family of the Holocaust on both sides. He told me he asked her once how they got a whole country to hate people like her and she said by turning us into the enemy.

I remember in a college history course later learning that Germans were told specifically that Jews were "Marxists" and the enemy. It feels somewhat like people are trying to do that with liberals and black people here.

I hesitated going into that because I didn't want anyone to think i was accusing *them* of doing that even if I believe Trump is and it had potential to be taken the wrong way.

All that to say, my deeper feelings on this may have resulting in a more mocking tone than I would normally intend and I do commend you for wanting to see peace and unity.

Hope that helps. If not, sorry for stressing you out.

 

[Tanni]

I think the problem is then it becomes a bit like "all lives matter" which is a little akin to saying "prostate cancer matters too" at a breast cancer rally. I think the focus (for now) needs to be on police brutality disproportionately affecting black people.

Sure, you're right. I just wasn't sure how disproportionately it affected African Americans over white Americans. The link I posted earlier in the thread mentioned white Americans being killed by the Police too in still -- to me, as a Brit -- pretty large numbers, so I thought that maybe it was an issue where both white Americans and people of colour could find some common ground.

I was trying to think about it from the point of view of someone who might not understand or like the BLM movement, and how they could be brought to see the importance of it. For instance, to use your analogy, saying that men get breast cancer too, and that's why they should care about a breast cancer cure. I guess that's pandering though -- it isn't really fair on the African American community, who deserve to have the focus.

 

[Tanni]

Here's my take: Because of the institutionalized racism and discrimination against people of color, it's really bad, and has been so for centuries. White nationalists have no problem with this kind of history, and seem to feel threatened when people of color demand justice for themselves, their families, and their race.

If you watch the BLM protests and demonstrations closely, there's almost always some kind of racist and white nationalist outside groups with their military style assault weapons in the midst of things. They're the ones who love conflict, and go looking for it. And these are the type of low-lifers that Trump and Trumpism cater to. It's really a pretty despicable situation.

Thanks for explaining Lane, great post

The impression I was getting from reading some posts was that the protests are not really to do with the BLM movement any longer, hence my question. For instance, some of the people who have posted in this thread have said that they support the BLM movement, but seem to be implying that the protests are now riots and an excuse for general anarchy. I'm obviously not in America so I don't know either way. It just seems like some people, even liberals, are genuinely quite scared/worried about the protests, and that's quite at odds with the protests we had here.

 

[Luman]

I grew up in rural Wisconsin, which Trump won by about 22K votes. Apparently, 250K Wisconsin voters who went for Obama never bothered to show up to vote for Clinton in 2016. One of their major complaints was she never even came to Wisconsin to ask for their votes. -- Another factor was the successful voter suppression efforts led by the Republican controlled state government. BTW, Jill Stein got over 30K votes in Wisconsin, another politician who's a little to chummy with Putin for my own comfort.

Well, no, and that's the problem. Generally speaking, there's one set of rules for caucasian people in the U.S., and another set of rules for people of color. There is a very seldom you hear a story where a white person has been pulled over for a minor traffic violation, and then ends up being killed for no good reason.

People of color are constantly harrassed way, way more than Caucasian people, in so many ways. Whether that colored person is driving, walking, playing in a park, sleeping in bed (Breonna Taylor), "situations" that arise (such as a broken tailight) that should be handled in a relatively low-key manner way too often get escalated by the police, which then often ends up in fatalities.

The same holds true for what happens in our criminal justice system. A drug offense by a person of color can result in decades of incarceration, while a caucasian person gets the equivalent of a slap on the wrist. And then there's the other major injustices which are designed to keep colored people "in their place". There's horrible discrimination in housing, education, employment, voting, etc. Racism and discrimination is burned deep in the U.S. culture.

Here's my take: Because of the institutionalized racism and discrimination against people of color, it's really bad, and has been so for centuries. White nationalists have no problem with this kind of history, and seem to feel threatened when people of color demand justice for themselves, their families, and their race.

If you watch the BLM protests and demonstrations closely, there's almost always some kind of racist and white nationalist outside groups with their military style assault weapons in the midst of things. They're the ones who love conflict, and go looking for it. And these are the type of low-lifers that Trump and Trumpism cater to. It's really a pretty despicable situation.

BLM, a loosely organized group, is not addressing the real problem, with bad cops. They won't deal with it, because of politics, therefore they are wasting their time and are doomed to fail. There is a very simple solution, but it will never happen. Because the correct approach to this problem is not currently feasible, for BLM and their allies, negative incidents with cops who should not be on the force will continue, sometimes resulting in unnecessary death, and heartbreak.

 

[Foamearplugssuck]

but seem to be implying that the protests are now riots and an excuse for general anarchy.

That's kinda been the way they've been portrayed in the news. What happens a lot of times though is that protests will start out as peaceful, then the cops show up and instigate violence, which turns the protest into a riot. Then non-protestors/chaos enthusiasts will take advantage of the riot to loot.

In cities like Portland, where there are a lot of anti-government/anarchist groups, the police and government response to the protests have been particularly brutal. Here's an article that does a good job of talking about what's going on there. Also, The Daily from the NYT did an okay-ish episode about it too if you wanted to learn a bit more about the situation there.

 

[Lane]

It just seems like some people, even liberals, are genuinely quite scared/worried about the protests, and that's quite at odds with the protests we had here.

@Tanni -- I think something to keep in mind is that the vast majority of protestors are not violent, and do not condone the violence that occurs. I don't consider myself a liberal, but like most of them, I too am concerned about the violence that at times accompanys valid protests. People who resort to violence have different reasons for doing so, but I think some protestors resort to mayhem just for the sake of mayhem. And every time it happens, it hurts the BLM cause.

Too many cops also readily resort to mayhem and violence, and is a primary reason for all the protests and the BLM movement. Many white supremacists gravitate toward the military and police work.

BLM, a loosely organized group, is not addressing the real problem, with bad cops.

@Luman -- I agree with you that too little attention is given to bad cops. However, I think the BLM movement is trying to address it. I interpreted their original demands for defunding the police as their way of going about it. Unfortunately, it's about the worst strategy they could think of.

 

[FGG]

BLM, a loosely organized group, is not addressing the real problem, with bad cops. They won't deal with it, because of politics, therefore they are wasting their time and are doomed to fail. There is a very simple solution, but it will never happen. Because the correct approach to this problem is not currently feasible, for BLM and their allies, negative incidents with cops who should not be on the force will continue, sometimes resulting in unnecessary death, and heartbreak.

Out of curiosity, what's your simple solution?

 

[FGG]

@Luman -- I agree with you that too little attention is given to bad cops. However, I think the BLM movement is trying to address it. I interpreted their original demands for defunding the police as their way of going about it. Unfortunately, it's about the worst strategy they could think of.

Might sound weird but one of the big road blocks I think is a semantic one.

"Defund the police" can and does mean this:



But it's too easy for people to say "omg, BLM wants to abolish all police!"

 

[Lucifer]

BLM, a loosely organized group, is not addressing the real problem, with bad cops. They won't deal with it, because of politics, therefore they are wasting their time and are doomed to fail. There is a very simple solution, but it will never happen. Because the correct approach to this problem is not currently feasible, for BLM and their allies, negative incidents with cops who should not be on the force will continue, sometimes resulting in unnecessary death, and heartbreak.

What simple solution are you talking about that won't get done?

 

[Lane]

But it's too easy for people to say "omg, BLM wants to abolish all police!"

@FGG -- I think you're absolutely correct on that, which is why I think it's such a disastrous strategy to use the words, "defund the police". I think they would be much better off to be much more precise with their wording, so that it's much more difficult for people to misconstrue their intent.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the Trump campaign team is continually trying to make the case that Biden wants to "defund the police". It's not true of course, but they know it can be an effective strategy for the vast majority of people who usually don't bother to look further than the words uttered by politicians.

 

[FGG]

@FGG -- I think you're absolutely correct on that, which is why I think it's such a disastrous strategy to use the words, "defund the police". I think they would be much better off to be much more precise with their wording, so that it's much more difficult for people to misconstrue their intent.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the Trump campaign team is continually trying to make the case that Biden wants to "defund the police". It's not true of course, but they know it can be an effective strategy for the vast majority of people who usually don't bother to look further than the words uttered by politicians.

There seems to be a failure on the left to understand how ambiguous terms can be twisted.

Bernie's Scandinavian style democratic socialism being compared to authoritarian Chinese communism is another good example.

Conservatives are just better at simplifying their message. I think this is why the most effective anti Trump ads are written by Republicans (The Lincoln Project).

 

[all to gain]

I googled it. It's a good flag. Chicago's flag is the best one in my opinion, however.

Nah, the Chicago flag doesn't compare to the Union Jack (British flag). The English flag is just a standard flag though really.

South Korea has a good flag, too.

 

[Luman]

Out of curiosity, what's your simple solution?

Get rid of all police unions. They are the reason that bad cops cannot be fired. About half the country's police are unionized, and guess which ones have the most complaints and records of abuse? That's right, those with union contracts.

Now the problem is, these cop unions give large donations to politicians, usually Democrats, who will not address the issue, lest they lose the contributions. The other problem is, all of the labor unions stand together and will not kick the police unions out of the larger, umbrella organizations, such as the AFL-CIO, which many of these cop unions belong to.

Crime goes up, as it has in NYC, when the police are defunded and special anti-crime units are stopped. Citizens cannot take their place, as some believe should be the solution. New Yorkers are now demanding that the police defunding, which has recently been implemented by Mayor Bill de Blasio, be reversed, due to a significant increase in violent crime and shootings.

Unless the cop unions are eliminated, or stripped of all power other than the negotiation of salary, medical benefits, vacation, etc., and not permitted to be involved with the disciplinary and firing procedures, the same terrible things will happen, over and over.

Until BLM and similar organizations demand that police unions be eliminated, or totally stripped of their powers to protect guilty cops from being fired, they are going to fail in their mission to end police abuse.

 

[PeteJ]

That's kinda been the way they've been portrayed in the news. What happens a lot of times though is that protests will start out as peaceful, then the cops show up and instigate violence, which turns the protest into a riot. Then non-protestors/chaos enthusiasts will take advantage of the riot to loot.

In cities like Portland, where there are a lot of anti-government/anarchist groups, the police and government response to the protests have been particularly brutal. Here's an article that does a good job of talking about what's going on there. Also, The Daily from the NYT did an okay-ish episode about it too if you wanted to learn a bit more about the situation there.

Some are peaceful but many erupt into violence and looting.

The MSM doesn't cover it but there's many videos of blacks grabbing a white person in the area and beating him into a pulp. But, no one is protesting that. The hypocrisy and lies on this whole issue is pathetic. This political narrative is manufactured and part of a bigger plan and agenda.

 

[PeteJ]

That's kinda been the way they've been portrayed in the news. What happens a lot of times though is that protests will start out as peaceful, then the cops show up and instigate violence, which turns the protest into a riot. Then non-protestors/chaos enthusiasts will take advantage of the riot to loot.

In cities like Portland, where there are a lot of anti-government/anarchist groups, the police and government response to the protests have been particularly brutal. Here's an article that does a good job of talking about what's going on there. Also, The Daily from the NYT did an okay-ish episode about it too if you wanted to learn a bit more about the situation there.

The authorities in Portland have encouraged the radicalism and they don't arrest anyone who has committed violence. That is, specifically, they let them go after apprehension, if they even arrest anyone. They condone it, the violence and looting. What are you supposed to do if you are a cop there?!?

 

[PeteJ]

https://www.kdrv.com/content/news/P...f-man-who-crashed-pickup-truck-572151491.html

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland...n-blocks-from-downtown-portland-protests.html

Antifa and BLM lied about what happened on Twitter.

Antifa and BLM have colluded in reactionary violence and in most cases the police don't do anything. They are probably told not to and likely, the "defunding" is a factor but I suspect they are ordered not to be present.

 

[PeteJ]

In cities like Portland, where there are a lot of anti-government/anarchist groups, the police and government response to the protests have been particularly brutal. Here's an article that does a good job of talking about what's going on there. Also, The Daily from the NYT did an okay-ish episode about it too if you wanted to learn a bit more about the situation there.

What a garbage article.

 

[FGG]

Get rid of all police unions. They are the reason that bad cops cannot be fired. About half the country's police are unionized, and guess which ones have the most complaints and records of abuse? That's right, those with union contracts.

Now the problem is, these cop unions give large donations to politicians, usually Democrats, who will not address the issue, lest they lose the contributions. The other problem is, all of the labor unions stand together and will not kick the police unions out of the larger, umbrella organizations, such as the AFL-CIO, which many of these cop unions belong to.

Crime goes up, as it has in NYC, when the police are defunded and special anti-crime units are stopped. Citizens cannot take their place, as some believe should be the solution. New Yorkers are now demanding that the police defunding, which has recently been implemented by Mayor Bill de Blasio, be reversed, due to a significant increase in violent crime and shootings.

Unless the cop unions are eliminated, or stripped of all power other than the negotiation of salary, medical benefits, vacation, etc., and not permitted to be involved with the disciplinary and firing procedures, the same terrible things will happen, over and over.

Until BLM and similar organizations demand that police unions be eliminated, or totally stripped of their powers to protect guilty cops from being fired, they are going to fail in their mission to end police abuse.

I think state licensing boards independent of the union could accomplish the same thing without the same political liabilities. Unions will of course oppose this but there wouldn't be much of a public backlash against opposing their opposition I don't think.

I think there needs to be reduced militarization of the police, too. It's clearly harmful and promotes a "public as an enemy combatant" mentality. Having a militarized police in the presence of an authoritarian president is also exactly how dictatorships start to evolve as well.

 

[FGG]

This is definitely worrying:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/08/27...he-fda-will-its-scientific-integrity-survive/

"Trump has even agitated for the FDA to approve oleandrin, an unproven plant extract, touted, without evidence, by the CEO of MyPillow.Com, a major Trump backer, though the agency has made no move to sanction its use."

 

[FGG]

I still think Putin has something on Trump:

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/08/tr...learning-he-missed-a-putin-phone-call-report/

 

[DaveN]

I think state licensing boards independent of the union could accomplish the same thing without the same political liabilities. Unions will of course oppose this but there wouldn't be much of a public backlash against opposing their opposition I don't think.

I think there needs to be reduced militarization of the police, too. It's clearly harmful and promotes a "public as an enemy combatant" mentality. Having a militarized police in the presence of an authoritarian president is also exactly how dictatorships start to evolve as well.

Both of these posts have some awesome points.
They also have to end qualified immunity. If they reallocate funds to social programs and stop sending police military grade gear, end police unions, and end qualified immunity, these things could save a lot of innocent lives.

Not to mention the fact that the FBI warned that actual white supremacists/extremists were infiltrating police departments across the country. Maybe we can do a little more in terms of background checks/evaluations to avoid hiring terrorists maybe?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31...-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/

A Boston Celtic Jaylen Brown was quoted "The question I would like to ask is, does America think that black people or people of color are uncivilized, savages, or naturally unjust, or are we products of the environments that we participate in?"
Amazing question to ask like that because:

A) If yes, you think Black people are just naturally uncivilized, then (in my opinion) I don't think there is hope for you. You are racist and I don't think there is much to change your mind.
B) If you think they are products of their environment, then surely it isn't a leap to say that we should make changes to said environment that is disproportionately impacting black people.

 

[WillBeNimble]

I mean, Luman isn't fully wrong about police unions. Getting rid of them would help. At the same time, I'd rather preserve unions, just have there be more oversight on actual hiring. Bah, that's a sticky road. The unions are why the cops are able to hold on to their current pay and such, but they are surprisingly harmful here.

Police training being improved is important too, as they are trained in a us vs. them mentality. Bill Grossman's "Sheep dog" mentality really makes these cops see killing as just part of the job, which it shouldn't be.

 

[FGG]

Both of these posts have some awesome points.
They also have to end qualified immunity. If they reallocate funds to social programs and stop sending police military grade gear, end police unions, and end qualified immunity, these things could save a lot of innocent lives.

Not to mention the fact that the FBI warned that actual white supremacists/extremists were infiltrating police departments across the country. Maybe we can do a little more in terms of background checks/evaluations to avoid hiring terrorists maybe?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31...-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/

A Boston Celtic Jaylen Brown was quoted "The question I would like to ask is, does America think that black people or people of color are uncivilized, savages, or naturally unjust, or are we products of the environments that we participate in?"
Amazing question to ask like that because:

A) If yes, you think Black people are just naturally uncivilized, then (in my opinion) I don't think there is hope for you. You are racist and I don't think there is much to change your mind.
B) If you think they are products of their environment, then surely it isn't a leap to say that we should make changes to said environment that is disproportionately impacting black people.

I love your questions. I would be nervous to hear the response by some of the people in this thread though tbh.