War in Ukraine — Megathread

People killing each other in this day and age seems so insane. Senator Rand Paul is against any further funding for Ukraine. It's all borrowed money and creates more inflation. I've read some of the money helps the farmers plant and harvest their grain. That part makes sense.
 
This war has turned into a major geopolitical disaster for Russia. Whatever the outcome of the war, whatever disasters are inflicted on Ukraine, it has exposed Russian military weakness that no other event could, significantly eroding Russian soft power in the process. They've embarrassed themselves against an army that's much smaller in size and with no naval force. Prior to the war, Russia had a much higher reputation for its military might compared to now. You had publications like The Economist, in 2020, who were praising Russian military reforms as "impressive" and "dazzling" and even suggested that NATO nations would need to step their game up to match Russia lol. Does anyone anywhere still believe in this perception of Russian military strength today? No. Their military has been meme'd to death already.

In my opinion, this self-induced decline in their perceived strength is a significant setback for Russia. It's hard to see how they can come back from it without having a really long period of reform/reorganization, which is probably not even possible under their current existing political structure.

And that's their military we're just talking about. Then there's NATO. The war has unified NATO more than ever now, which almost definitely will lead to long-term higher investment in NATO military powers. NATO has also expanded to Russia's borders and right next to a key submarine and nuclear missile site as well. NATO's expansion with two major nations, Finland (and potentially Sweden soon), represents nothing short of a major geopolitical crisis for Russia - all entirely self-inflicted thanks to dumb Putin.

Europe is becoming more self-reliant when it comes to their natural resources as a result. No one will trade with Russia now or invest in their country and Russians will be looked with disdain wherever they go. Well, particularly in the West. They'll still have support from anti-West developing countries and authoritarian developed countries though. We can already see that with Putin's recent visit to North Korea. Assholes teaming up with assholes. Go figure. They have sabotaged their future economic growth.

Russia will remain much weaker strategically for the foreseeable future on a geopolitical scale.

Exactly, you're using Putin's words. You aren't 'neutral' then. So my point still stands.

Why should we trust anything Russia says when they:
  • Won't even call it a war.
  • Admit that their soldiers have committed war crimes.
  • Weren't truthful about what happened to Moskva and Saky - with stories that rapidly changed and contradicted themselves.
  • Were using a nuclear power plant as a shield.
  • Are indiscriminately attacking populated areas with no clear military targets, using weapons they know are inaccurate.
So, can you can see why the Russian point of view on this 'special military operation' is considered to be almost worthless and a way to hide what's really happening. How daft do Russians have to be to believe that the biggest military attack in European soil since WW2 is not a full scale war?

Pick your poison: 'NATO encroachment', 'Ukrainian Nazis', 'saving' Russian speaking people, 'what about Iraq'?

You and a few others keep bringing up the 2nd Iraq war as if both conflicts were identical. Only that the 2nd Iraq War wasn't anywhere near as black and white like with this current conflict. It's false equivalency, but also a sad attempt to deflect and excuse what's happening in Ukraine. 2 wrongs don't make a right anyway.

Iraq War:

1) Saddam Hussein was a ruthless dictator.
2) An international coalition had already had to drive Saddam back once before.
3) Saddam's regime used chemical weapons, gassing his own people and likely did want nuclear weapons (mainly because Iran were also working on them at the time).
4) The US and allies did not indiscriminately target civilian areas. There were numerous instances of mistakes happening, but they didn't flatten entire cities.
5) The Americans and Brits did not systematically commit war crimes. There were soldiers there, so unsurprisingly some isolated acts did occur, and the person(s) involve were taken into custody to face justice. Accountability doesn't exist in the Russian military.
6) There were and have been numerous attempts to get the Iraqis back to governing themselves. It wasn't an attempt to steal territory.

Compared to the Ukraine war:

1) Ukraine has a democratically elected government, with no major concerns as to the veracity of the election.
2) Recent Ukrainian governments had committed no atrocities. Isolated incidents in a civil war fueled by Russia, yes, but nothing systematic.
3) Problematic parts of Ukrainian society have either been cracked down or reformed (all prior to the current invasion). It still is an ongoing process as they begin to grow more westernized.
4) Russia has a history of meddling in Ukrainian domestic affairs. Invading Crimea and unofficially Donetsk and Luhansk.
5) Russia (and the separatists they back) have a record of atrocious war crimes. Ones that look systematic.
6) Russia have clearly targeted civilians.
7) Russia have leveled cities.
8) Russia is attempting to steal territory that doesn't belong to them.

There were a few reasons to invade Iraq on top of the bullshit weapons of mass destruction stuff. Saddam not only had chemical weapons, he'd actually USED them. Now, enough for an invasion? Likely not, and those who either falsely pushed the WMD stuff, or clung to it, were idiots (Bush administration in particular). There were obviously some oil interests too. But was it evil to depose a ruthless nasty dictator? The 2nd Iraq invasion may have not been right, but it was not evil.

The mentality behind it was certainly different from Putin's. The invasion of Iraq was born of an overwhelming desire to do something in the face of a new enemy (post 9/11 war on terror) that couldn't be fought on a battlefield. It wasn't evil that drove it, it was frustration, stupidity, anger and misplaced aggression.

But what Russia is doing is pure evil. Putin is straight up trying to grab land, to extend his power and fortune by whatever means necessary. The most 'base' of reasons. Russia have precisely zero good justifications. Even for their own gain this was an utterly stupid move (in hindsight, as they will have been the ones snuffing up their own propaganda about how great the Russian armed forces were more than anyone else. Talk about a major geopolitical fail...

And might I remind you that one of the largest protests ever, in the world, was against the start of the invasion of Iraq. Millions of people, across many countries protesting the war, openly. Meanwhile in Russia, Putin still holds a 80% approval rating. It's only gone up since the start of the invasion. Any attempt to protest the war inside Russia will have you in handcuffs and taken into custody. Autocracy at its finest.

I'm not sure why I've wasted my time outlining this, but here we are. Perhaps this will put someone else going off on some false and stupid points of comparison.
Okay, so the Ukrainian side is mostly being shared, but considering what the Russian side have been confirmed to have done, not to mention Russia's history, their constant lies, and the bare naked fact that their invasion is in the completely wrong, why should we take anything the Russians say seriously anymore? Besides, there's plenty of other sources besides Ukrainian sources. We went over this already.

Do I want war? No, of course not. I hate war. There's often a diplomatic solution, but not when one nation is indiscriminately attacked by an imperialist aggressor. I support Ukrainian's right to self-determination and their sovereignty in the face against aggressive invaders. Russia is free to end the fighting at anytime, and the war will end. They chose to attack, and now they either have to decide to end it and leave, or they have to be forced to leave for however long it takes. The West should continue to supply and support the Ukrainians for as long as necessary because Putin is banking on seeing western support and aid being stopped, strategically speaking.

And that's not even touching upon how it's frankly morally right to support Ukraine against having their country invaded, snatched from them, destroyed, and their people brutalized all because of some stupid dumb nationalism and one crazy man's demented dreams of rebuilding the old Russian empire.

You apparently watch/read the news, yeah? Did you miss the part when Putin compared himself to Peter the fucking Great. You do know what that means if Russia gets to steal territory in Ukraine? How do you think the People's Republic of China would take that? They will see the West and Democracy as weak and will invade Taiwan at some point.
Time and time again, negotiating with Putin's Russia serves only to buy time for Russia to prepare more attacks later on. Every negotiations with the Russians is just another opportunity for them to deceive you. Actually, if the Russians are calling for negotiations, it means that no negotiations are far worse for them. Anyone with a brain knows this. The Ukrainians are well aware of this, which is why they persist in their fight. They know they have to fight out of necessity because the alternative is a direct threat to their continued existence. It's only after Russia stops murdering Ukrainian civilians and withdraws from Ukrainian lands talks could happen. Putin needs to be removed from power beforehand though.

By the way, Sevastopol, Crimea was just hit hard a few days ago by Ukrainian missiles. Massive damage done to major Russian infrastructure at the heart of the Black Sea fleet (headquarters) along with dead Russians. It blatantly crosses the red lines Putin has laid down for starting a nuclear conflict.

Well... we're waiting.gif

If a violent gang who lived next door broke into your home and took over several rooms. You fight them back to just 3 rooms, most of your neighbors give you weapons to help fight, but some people think you should negotiate with the gang... Also, this gang has already signed treaties in the past agreeing never to invade your home, yet here they are, and you're being encouraged to give up part of your home and make the same agreement. Would you negotiate with them or keep fighting? Negotiating in this instance is what appeasers do.

P.S. It's always telling when some people suddenly become fiscal hawks during times like this. At least I give credit to those (Americans) who have spent their entire lives railing against the bloated US military budget (over $700 billion annually). You're decades late for that bandwagon, buddy. That train already left the station.
Holy hell, that's a lot of extremely one-sided opinions lol. Everything you say fits a biased Western narrative. It doesn't matter what a conflict is called, it doesn't matter why it was started. Any conflict is bad, regardless, which is why I believe Zelenskiy delaying negotiations with Russia is ridiculous. Peace negotiations aren't going to change how fast or effectively Russia fortified its defensive. That's ludicrous.
 
Citizens want politicians who care about their country, not about someone else's problems:

Robert Fico wins Slovakia election with anti-Ukraine stance

EU and US citizens are being forced by their governments to send their hard-earned tax money to be stolen in Ukraine:

Europe Express. Battling corruption in Ukraine

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The EU as a block is just committing suicide by passing nonsensical legislation like this:

Historic EU deal reached on how to manage sudden rise in asylum seekers | European Union | The Guardian

Everyday the leftist media are reporting on the invasion of Europe by ILLEGAL immigrants and the EU does nothing about it. This is not a matter about re-locating those people. It is a matter of defending our borders and stopping them to come illegally anymore.

Boat carrying record 280 people from west Africa reaches Canaries | Spain | The Guardian
 
I have been informed by @Jammer, on the presidential election 2024 thread, that Cornel West, a Progressive, is now going to run as an independent. West is against our involvement in the Ukraine/Russia war. That makes a total of three of Biden's current presidential election opponents who are against his policies in this war: Trump, Kennedy, and West.
 
I have been informed by @Jammer, on the presidential election 2024 thread, that Cornel West, a Progressive, is now going to run as an independent. West is against our involvement in the Ukraine/Russia war. That makes a total of three of Biden's current presidential election opponents who are against his policies in this war: Trump, Kennedy, and West.
Hi @Luman,

Noam Chomsky, perhaps the granddaddy of progressive thought and left of center thinking, is also critical of the US response to the Ukraine war.
 
What if America pulls out its support of Ukraine?

What then if Ukraine gets overrun and Russia's ambition increases?

What's the next country to be invaded by Russia?

Would America get re-involved then? And if so, would they regret pulling out their support of Ukraine in the first place, with an even bigger problem at hand?
 
What if America pulls out its support of Ukraine?

What then if Ukraine gets overrun and Russia's ambition increases?

What's the next country to be invaded by Russia?

Would America get re-involved then? And if so, would they regret pulling out their support of Ukraine in the first place, with an even bigger problem at hand?
That is the slippery slope argument and it is driving western policy at present.

It will in time to come be out of current politicians' hands since administrations will change. The UK Labour Party is, it is fair to say - probably less enthusiastic about funding the war than the conservatives and we have an election next year in May. Trump, if he wins - will probably end USA support and cracks are already appearing in the EU.

So we will get to see if the slippery slope is as slippery as many are arguing in the not too distant future.
 
What if America pulls out its support of Ukraine?

What then if Ukraine gets overrun and Russia's ambition increases?

What's the next country to be invaded by Russia?

Would America get re-involved then? And if so, would they regret pulling out their support of Ukraine in the first place, with an even bigger problem at hand?
We are not the police of the world. If Ukraine wants our weapons, they should pay for them.
 
What if America pulls out its support of Ukraine?
Ukraine gets overrun.
What then if Ukraine gets overrun and Russia's ambition increases?
Russia has zero ambition of conquering neighboring countries (Zelensky got to you).
What's the next country to be invaded by Russia?
Except Eastern Ukraine, none, zero, zilch!

Do you have any idea how hard it is to control a population of millions of people who oppose you?

Israel can hardly control Palestinians since 1948 they are a huge headache for Israel. Imagine occupying Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, etc. Can you imagine what kind of resources that would take? Russia can barely beat Ukraine in the Donbas after over a year of fighting, half of Russian tanks destroyed, etc. I mean just stop and think about it for a second.

Russia is a far cry from the Soviet war machine of 1950. No Russian today is going to support invading Poland, Germany, etc, that is pure madness.

P.S. Any country in Europe except Ukraine is a NATO member, which means article 5, which means nuclear war. That is precisely why Russia is not escalating this conflict beyond its current objectives. Ukraine isn't part of NATO, therefore it's fair game for any country to invade and take their chance with conventional weapons. It's just war games US vs Russia.
 
The House In Tarragona Of Ukrainian Journalist Anatoli Sharii Was Attacked With Molotov Cocktails (worldnationnews.com)

It seems Zelensky also wants to silence journalists who are critical of his regime.

News in Spain covered this story today and apparently the house of that Ukrainian journalist has been attacked for denouncing organised crime and drug trafficking in the circle close to Zelensky.

It is very interesting to notice how Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe after Russia, and how the same tactics attributed to Putin are used by Zelensky to silence criticism against him or his regime.

In the meantime, the European taxpayers keep shelling out money for Ukraine, supporting corruption and this whole nonsense.

Now that there is war also in Israel we can see the difference between a real war (Israel - circa 8.000 casualties in two weeks) and Ukraine's little skirmishes where our money is being wasted...
 
Russia continues attacks but using human wave attacks:
A Ukrainian army spokesperson said that Russian troops were refusing to attack Ukrainian positions near Avdiivka because of heavy losses and that there had been mutinies in some units.

Russia is executing soldiers who try to retreat from a bloody offensive in eastern Ukraine, the White House has said.

According to the US, some of the casualties suffered by Russia near Avdiivka were "on the orders of their own leaders".

"Russia's mobilised forces remain under-trained, under-equipped and unprepared for combat, as was the case during their failed winter offensive last year," National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said in a briefing on Thursday.

He said that the Russian military "appears to be using what we would call 'human wave' tactics, just throwing masses of these poorly trained soldiers right into the fight."

"No proper equipment, no leadership, no resourcing, no support. It is unsurprising that Russian forces are suffering from poor morale," Mr Kirby added.
Ukraine war: Russia executing own retreating soldiers, US says

It's a well used Russian tactic for centuries, throwing bodies (figuratively) at their enemies...
 
Fearing defeat by a challenger, Biden's puppet Zelensky, president of Ukraine, has canceled the 2024 presidential elections. Ukraine has had marital law since Feb. 2022. He is now the dictator of his country.
 
Yes, they are. The US is the only country that has dropped atomic bombs over the civil population.

The US has also killed civilians in all the wars it has fought, like any other nation that goes to war. The mess the US has created in Irak and Afghanistan will be remembered in history. The US spent 20 years in Afghanistan and the Taliban controlled the country in two weeks after foreign soldiers left.

How could the Iraq war, started by the US, be considered "defensive"?
Right, the US used 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, thereby destabilizing the entire Middle East. The US murdered over 1 million innocent Iraq civilians. Obama had 8 wars going. Now who's the real terrorist country.
 
Fun fact, Zelenskyy just got caught buying two yachts worth 75 million with US taxpayer dollars.
Not only that, I've received over a dozen viral testing assays from US taxpayers (on their dime!) and they were clandestinely deposited into my mailbox by an unknown person. Couldn't be sure as I've only seen them from behind, but they were apparently wearing a uniform of some kind; could be military or other type of top secret cabal. Very concerning - we should all check YouTube for confirmation and report back.
 
Right, the US used 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, thereby destabilizing the entire Middle East. The US murdered over 1 million innocent Iraq civilians. Obama had 8 wars going. Now who's the real terrorist country.
Bush and Obama should have faced International Criminal Court. But no, they were spreading their fucking democracy. The latter got Nobel Peace Prize, which was a travesty.
 
Bush and Obama should have faced International Criminal Court. But no, they were spreading their fucking democracy. The latter got Nobel Peace Prize, which was a travesty.
Well, hoa there one second!

Just a recap of some modern history for you: Dubya invaded Afghanistan because the (in)competent government or chief tribesman refused to hand over Osama bin Laden and his gang. The mistake was in staying there for 20 years pumping in money and promoting gender equality among the tribes. Towards the end phase I was kind of scratching my head when I came across the Gay Liberation flag in full mast hoisted outside the US embassy. That's fine for New York or Amsterdam, but for the most primitive, fundamentalist Muslim nation on the planet? I dunno. Maybe they have to find their own way.

As for the invasion of Iraq, as an avid and diligent reader of newspapers I can state that it was a personal decision of Dubya's. Recall that Saddam Hussein had attempted to bump off Reagan and Bush senior -- and nearly succeeded too, so it was Dubya Bush Junior's decision to call pay-back time on Sadam and kick ass in Iraq.

How do I know this? I read it on the internet. It must be true. I wrote it there myself... :whistle:
 
Well, hoa there one second!

Just a recap of some modern history for you: Dubya invaded Afghanistan because the (in)competent government or chief tribesman refused to hand over Osama bin Laden and his gang. The mistake was in staying there for 20 years pumping in money and promoting gender equality among the tribes. Towards the end phase I was kind of scratching my head when I came across the Gay Liberation flag in full mast hoisted outside the US embassy. That's fine for New York or Amsterdam, but for the most primitive, fundamentalist Muslim nation on the planet? I dunno. Maybe they have to find their own way.

As for the invasion of Iraq, as an avid and diligent reader of newspapers I can state that it was a personal decision of Dubya's. Recall that Saddam Hussein had attempted to bump off Reagan and Bush senior -- and nearly succeeded too, so it was Dubya Bush Junior's decision to call pay-back time on Sadam and kick ass in Iraq.

How do I know this? I read it on the internet. It must be true. I wrote it there myself... :whistle:
I agree with your assessment of Afghanistan 100%. I think that we should have pattern-bombed the areas in Afghanistan where bin laden and his lowlife followers were suspected to be and allowed professional mercenaries to search him out, as well. It was completely wrong for us to stay there for 20 years.

I am not familiar enough with the Iraq situation, to say much about it.
 
I stand corrected. I was wrong on the report of Zelensky buying 2 yachts and I apologize for that. This does not change the fact that Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe.
 
So the MSN is trumpeting that the Russia has lost 90 % of its army but, on the other hand, Russia is going to take over Europe! Which talking point is it? How is Russia going to do that if their army is gone. The only winners in this proxy war are the defense contractors.
 
Big takeaway Cliffs Notes: Coalitions of dictatorships are forming. The West, especially Western Europe, has let ist capability to manufacture weapons slip and are playing catch up. Expect a winter offensive from Russia as the grounds freezes but don't expect more conscription from them until after Putin is "reelected." Belarus is quickly losing whatever sovereignty it had and Russia is gaining more influence there.

Russia is taking heavy losses but they outman and outgun the Ukrainians who are having to ration ammunition especially for their US gear for obvious reasons.
 
Russki Air Force is such a joke. Like seriously, it really can't be understated how absolutely shocking in every single respect your Air Force has to be, for someone to be able to shoot down your $250 million spy plane. Look up Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) and you'll understand how laughable it is. You'd practically have to be begging for it to be shot down to get it into a situation where that's even possible. Russian idiocy is the gift that keeps on giving.

Russians and their so-called "hybrid warfare". Stockpiling all those missiles and drones just to hit strategically insignificant random targets, all to impress the useful idiots in the West.
So the MSN is trumpeting that the Russia has lost 90 % of its army but, on the other hand, Russia is going to take over Europe! Which talking point is it? How is Russia going to do that if their army is gone..
I bet you thought no one was going to call you out on this, huh?

Read it again:

Russia Has Lost Almost 90% of Its Prewar Army, U.S. Intelligence Says

It's stating Russia has lost almost 90% of its pre-invasion force. It doesn't include the 'partial mobilization' and conscription that occurred post-invasion. Insane nonetheless. All sacrificial tribute to a megalomaniac, and not revolting about it. Russians really are mindless serfs.

Also, reportedly Russia now has half the prison population that it had before the war. Hence why they've stabilized presence in the frontlines without major recruitment. Women prisoners are being forcibly recruited as well, although a minority.
Fun fact, Zelenskyy just got caught buying two yachts worth 75 million with US taxpayer dollars.
I'd be absolutely embarrassed to be falling for Ruzzian propaganda and disinformation... it is aimed at Russians after all who are the most brain-dead zombiefied droids on the planet. At least they have an excuse being fed hot garbage 24/7 all their lives, what's your excuse again?

Anyways, I abandoned this train wreck of a thread ages ago, but popping in to witness the ever ongoing disaster here. Still a comedy show of pathetic discourse I see. Lacks even a faint understanding of geopolitics. I've seen 3rd-graders put out better discussions and discourse than this.
 
It will be interesting to see Tucker Carlson's interview with Putin tomorrow. We have given Ukraine nearly 200 billion dollars in aid, and Zelinsky wants more, so Americans must have the chance to hear what Putin has to say.
 

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